UnknownUser - Posted - 02/12/2014:  16:47:11

Hi Folks, for those interested in researching these key makers, check out the following patents filed in 1920's-1930's with very detailed descriptions and purposes of development:



(Fred Bacon Tailpiece) - Filed Apr 1901 - google.com/patents/US686881

(Fred Bacon Banjo) - Filed Aug 1905 - google.com/patents/US823985

(Fred Bacon Tailpiece) - Filed Mar 1921 - google.com/patents/US1462359

(Fred Bacon Banjo) - Filed Apr 1922 - google.com/patents/US1649559

(Bacon & Day Banjo) - Filed Nov 1923 - google.com/patents/US1653424 ( This is the one with the grommets on the flange)

(Bacon & Day Resonator) - Filed Apr 1924 - google.com/patents/US1608875

(Bacon & Day Bridge Design) - Filed Aug 1924 - google.com/patents/US1649376

(Bacon & Day Snare Drum) - Filed Aug 1925 - google.com/patents/US1630461

(Bacon & Day Banjo Mute) - Filed May 1928 - google.com/patents/US1800588



(David L. Day Banjo) - Filed May 1931 - google.com/patents/US1887291

(Oettinger Taipiece) - Filed Mar 1924 - google.com/patents/US1713855



​The goal of this thread is to house much of the documentation that proves/disproves known assumptions about build dates, or just good to know info.  It is important that a central repository exist for future fans of B&D banjos (and not exist in private collections).  Our resident experts have too much offline archived data to let disappear - so lets help shape the story.

Edited by - UnknownUser on 03/01/2014 05:35:00

NYCJazz - Posted - 02/12/2014:  17:06:37

B&D produced a few of those drums, evidently.

I ran across a note in a late 20's Music Trades Review where B&D had started shipping them.

Ed Britt says he's seen one single example which had been converted into a bass banjo, I believe.

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/12/2014:  18:17:35

Hey Nathan, yeah I think Bernunzio's sold one if I recall.  Here a document from 1926 referencing the new snare drum:

mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1926...-2-34.pdf



A Goldmine of a find, thanks so much Nathan for highlighting this or I would never have found this picture of an actual chicago exihibit with a bacon Banjo sign on the floor:

mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1925...26-41.pdf and the ad for the convention in 1925 -> mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1925...2-130.pdf



​Ed and/or Polle may be able to comment, here is a reference to Groton in June 1922 (were they there long before Day came on in 1922 - give 8322 in the DB?)

mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1922...23-85.pdf



In April they were identified as being from New London - mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1922...17-46.pdf

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/12/2014 18:27:32

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/12/2014:  18:42:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by petercorfield

Hey Nathan, yeah I think Bernunzio's sold one if I recall.  Here a document from 1926 referencing the new snare drum:

mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1926...-2-34.pdf



A Goldmine of a find, thanks so much Nathan for highlighting this or I would never have found this picture of an actual chicago exihibit with a bacon Banjo sign on the floor:

mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1925...26-41.pdf and the ad for the convention in 1925 -> mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1925...2-130.pdf



​Ed and/or Polle may be able to comment, here is a reference to Groton in June 1922 (were they there long before Day came on in 1922 - give 8322 in the DB?)

mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1922...23-85.pdf



In April they were identified as being from New London - mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1922...17-46.pdf

 

 

---

I've read that the move occured in 1920, but have conflicting info.

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/13/2014:  06:02:29

Also of interest as I havent seen these before - an extended fingerbord on what looks to be a 17 fret - small hole flange played by C. M. ROTHERMEL, from 1923

mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1923...3-116.pdf

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/13/2014 06:03:00

beezaboy - Posted - 02/13/2014:  06:03:31

The drum!

The Metronome - May 1, 1926

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/13/2014:  06:28:36

Statement from David Day 3 days after his official start Date (Sep 13th 1922)

mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1922...12-37.pdf



After their return from NY in Apr 1922 - mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1922...df​



This gives Bacon and Day at most 8months to become partners, develop the super banjo with a B&D stamp by year end 1922 (ie. 8322 in Polle's DB).

All the more reason for the suspect co-work immediately after this trip for F. J. Bacon and Maurice S Sherman​ at the Banjoist Guid in NY.



The one confusing document that slightly contradicts this 8322 dating is - mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1923...-4-38.pdf

where it is mentioned that they will be ready in July 1923 (a launch versus prototype no doubt)



 

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/13/2014 06:43:01

beezaboy - Posted - 02/13/2014:  06:49:01

FWIW Michael Holmes has published a book entitled "Index To Patents and Patentees of Acoustic Fretted Stringed Musical Instruments 1833 to 1949".  It lists patents for Fred Bacon (8) and David Day (7).

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/13/2014:  06:56:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by beezaboy

FWIW Michael Holmes has published a book entitled "Index To Patents and Patentees of Acoustic Fretted Stringed Musical Instruments 1833 to 1949".  It lists patents for Fred Bacon (8) and David Day (7).

---

Have you flowed the Patent Number through the Patent Database?  Would be good to have everything that I didnt capture.  Looks like Im missing 5 according to your numbers

beezaboy - Posted - 02/13/2014:  07:12:46

Holmes' work is a useful reference book:

amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/09...ooksearch

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/13/2014:  07:19:57

Here is one that is held in Canada similar to (US823985​)

brevets-patents.ic.gc.ca/opic-...mary.html



With Drawings

brevets-patents.ic.gc.ca/opic-...df​

brevets-patents.ic.gc.ca/opic-...df​

brevets-patents.ic.gc.ca/opic-...wings.pdf





 

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/13/2014:  07:23:00

Ok it seems this is the full list.  The counts you have are not mutually exclusive.  Bacon also filed Horseshoe patents lol .  He used the same lawyer as in other patents. google.com/patents/US744277



 

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/13/2014 07:27:32

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/13/2014:  12:51:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by petercorfield

Ok it seems this is the full list.  The counts you have are not mutually exclusive.  Bacon also filed Horseshoe patents lol .  He used the same lawyer as in other patents. google.com/patents/US744277



 

---

Yes, Fred Bacon did invent, and patent, specialized winter "Ice Shoes"with cleats, for horses. He made a small fortune from them, bought land in Vermont -- and built a small mansion on it, with the proceeds (It also helped fund the founding of The Bacon Banjo Co.) He also patented a hand-pushed rotary lawnmower, among a few other odd things... (It wasn't very successful, though.)

Fred patented the Silver Bell drum, because he supposedly played drums professionally, at one point. He kept a drum-set in the Groton factory, for practice... He also endorsed Ludwig drums at one point.

Best -- Ed Britt

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/13/2014:  13:04:49

And there you have it, a wonderful little tidbit of history.  Thanks so much Ed.  If you have a moment, can you clarify some of the questions above (re.

Also of interest as I havent seen these before - an extended fingerbord on what looks to be a 17 fret - small hole flange played by C. M. ROTHERMEL, from 1923

http://mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1923-77-23/MTR-1923-77-23-116.pdf )?  Was that custom?

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/13/2014:  15:08:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrittDLD1

quote:

---

Originally posted by petercorfield

Ok it seems this is the full list.  The counts you have are not mutually exclusive.  Bacon also filed Horseshoe patents lol .  He used the same lawyer as in other patents. google.com/patents/US744277



 

---

 

Yes, Fred Bacon did invent, and patent, specialized winter "Ice Shoes"with cleats, for horses. He made a small fortune from them, bought land in Vermont -- and built a small mansion on it, with the proceeds (It also helped fund the founding of The Bacon Banjo Co.) He also patented a hand-pushed rotary lawnmower, among a few other odd things... (It wasn't very successful, though.)

Fred patented the Silver Bell drum, because he supposedly played drums professionally, at one point. He kept a drum-set in the Groton factory, for practice... He also endorsed Ludwig drums at one point.

Best -- Ed Britt

---

Here is a reference to Ed's comments above: oldtimeherald.org/archive/back...acon.html and the Lawn Mower google.com/patents/US1130283

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/13/2014 15:10:16

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/13/2014:  16:28:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by petercorfield

.....

Ed and/or Polle may be able to comment, here is a reference to Groton in June 1922 (were they there long before Day came on in 1922 - give 8322 in the DB?)

mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1922...23-85.pdf



In April they were identified as being from New London - mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1922...17-46.pdf

 

 

---

Fred Bacon had an office/studio (perhaps with a small assembly workroom), as early as 1915, in The Plant Bldg., in New London, CT. (Fred also had a couple other studios in New England... His star pupil, Frank Bradbury, ran one of them -- in Hartford, I believe.)

At that point, Fred was winding-down the Forest Dale shop. (A few rather crude, low-end banjos were still being made there...) WWI had started in 1914, and good European materials were becoming difficult to acquire -- even though the US didn't enter the war until early-April of 1917.

Apparently, Fred was still using Lange, in NYC, to make his high-end Professional models. It's MY *assumption* that Lange probably sent finished PARTS to New London. Then Fred and a couple assistants did the final assembly, and set-up, to save $$. (There is some minor evidence that Fred may have had a similar arrangement, with his old friend David Day, at Vega -- while they were making the EARLY Bacon Professional FFs, from 1905-1910.)

The NEW generation of Bacon Orchestra banjos (with "Bacon" in script, on the peghead) were probably designed in 1920, by Fred and Lange. (Lange would be the most obvious choice... But other NYC-area makers could also have designed and made the early-20s Bacons. There is no absolute evidence -- either way -- so far.) The Bacon Orchestras were introduced in the "1921" Bacon catalog. (Written in the Fall of 1920.) The front cover lists: "Factory: Groton, Conn." and "Home Office: New London, Conn."

In early-1920, the Groton property was purchased, by Bacon's friend, student, and business- partner -- Dr. E.O. Winship. (Who was also co-inventor of the Bacon-Winship tailpiece -- used on the Bacon Orchestra banjos, and on the early-Blue Ribbons.) But the "factory" was more of a large 'workshop' at that point. And it was mostly doing assembly of NYC-made banjo parts, making some Bacon Ukuleles (Fred's wife performed on ukulele), and trying to finish and equip the 'factory' for full-production.

By mid-1921, they apparently had moved all the operations to the property in Groton; and were working on the development of the new (half-spun) Blue Ribbon models -- to be introduced at the NYC Guild Show, in April of 1922.

Best-- Ed Britt ©2014

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/13/2014:  18:23:59

Regarding patents - do be aware, that many application filings were performed rather late - some within the grace period - but some absolutely not.

The latter goes f.ex. for the soft pedal mute and the archtop tone ring.

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/13/2014:  18:35:26

Hence all the Patent Pending stamps I take...  The Pedal Mute is a great example, filed '28 but early '25 use.  Good to have your crossrefence to validate these.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/13/2014:  18:45:53

No - the Pat. Pend. etc. stamps were added after the time of filing.

Examples manufactured before or during the grace period prior to the filing were not stamped.

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 02/13/2014 18:47:05

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/13/2014:  18:51:53

Oh!  I havent seen any without that stamp, my apologies for the incorrect conclusion - I digress.

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/13/2014:  20:40:28

PS!

Regarding the grace period for patent or trade-mark application filings back in the 20s - does anyone know, how long this was?  I take, that it was either 6 or 12 months.

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/14/2014:  02:55:03

Hi Polle, I remember reading about the Wright Brother in early 1900's - Here is their example within, which provided a 2yr grace.  Of course the public use policy still applied, so Im surprise that the Pedal Mute for example was allowed given this...  

works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcont...dditional



​1939 saw that 2yr put to 1yr - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_...atent_law

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/14/2014 02:56:57

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/14/2014:  04:00:58

Aha - so long a period - back then!  Yesterday I looked up US Patent Office´s web site - they mentioned a period these days of either 6 or 12 months. I didn´t go into details.

Over here things are quite different - also between countries - but this year we´ll in DK have a referendum regarding a new and common EU patent law.

Yes - the pedal mute is indeed "out-of-order" - but I take (guess) that if someone else hadn´t copied it prior to the filing - Bacon was free putting up an application. Or?

BTW - did you notice the exact date April 2d 1923 in my posting above?  A German buddy - btw. the owner of SN10225 (also a Diff. D. SB #2 example) - has a few days ago mailed me the Trade-Mark registration for the "Silver Bell" name/logo - acoustudio.dk/Trademark%20Silv...0Bell.pdf - applied for in August that year - the mentioned exact date is by Mr. Day stated as the start of a continuous use in the business of the Bacon Co.. With the known production acceleration mid/late 1923 - do make an approximated calculation on your own for the first (for now) production example Silver Bell in my DB - SN9196 - you´ll most likely like I end up with a dating early April that year!  What a match!

Next step in the continued research will be finding out the exact hour of that day - LOL!

A task for you maybe (too difficult for me as an alien) - can a similar Trade-Mark registration for the B&D brand be found?  Was it at all applied for?  Quite interesting, I think.

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/14/2014:  05:05:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

Aha - so long a period - back then!  Yesterday I looked up US Patent Office´s web site - they mentioned a period these days of either 6 or 12 months. I didn´t go into details.

Over here things are quite different - also between countries - but this year we´ll in DK have a referendum regarding a new and common EU patent law.

 

Yes - the pedal mute is indeed "out-of-order" - but I take (guess) that if someone else hadn´t copied it prior to the filing - Bacon was free putting up an application. Or?

 

BTW - did you notice the exact date April 2d 1923 in my posting above?  A German buddy - btw. the owner of SN10225 (also a Diff. D. SB #2 example) - has a few days ago mailed me the Trade-Mark registration for the "Silver Bell" name/logo - acoustudio.dk/Trademark%20Silv...0Bell.pdf - applied for in August that year - the mentioned exact date is by Mr. Day stated as the start of a continuous use in the business of the Bacon Co.. With the known production acceleration mid/late 1923 - do make an approximated calculation on your own for the first (for now) production example Silver Bell in my DB - SN9196 - you´ll most likely like I end up with a dating early April that year!  What a match!

Next step in the continued research will be finding out the exact hour of that day - LOL!

 

A task for you maybe (too difficult for me as an alien) - can a similar Trade-Mark registration for the B&D brand be found?  Was it at all applied for?  Quite interesting, I think.

---

Here is what you are looking for:  A wealth of info within: tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=178...tusSearch

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/14/2014:  05:29:39

Here is the Senorita Trademark - tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=713...tusSearch with first use listed as Aug. 26, 1930 sold to D. H. Baldwin Company

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/14/2014 05:32:28

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/14/2014:  05:30:15

?????

As far as I can see - your link goes for the Silver Bell "name/logo" - ?????  I had that info! As shown above.

I was on the look for a possible registration of the B&D brand - I have some problems searching this myself - (most likely due to my poor English) - it seems, that I´m most of the time coming back to Black & Decker.  BTW - the brand of my first and still lovely electrical tool - after 42 years still full functioning in my workshop.

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/14/2014:  05:33:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

?????

As far as I can see - your link goes for the Silver Bell "name/logo" - ?????  I had that info! As shown above.

I was on the look for a possible registration of the B&D brand - I have some problems searching this myself - (most likely due to my poor English) - it seems, that I´m most of the time coming back to Black & Decker.  BTW - the brand of my first and still lovely electrical tool - after 42 years still full functioning in my workshop.

Polle

---

Yes there only two filings under bacon banjo co are SilverBell and Senorita.  Nothing for B&D

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/14/2014:  05:46:22

Althought here is something interesting, was owned by Gretch from 1925 - tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=722...tusSearch

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/14/2014:  05:48:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by petercorfield

Here is the Senorita Trademark - tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=713...tusSearch with first use listed as Aug. 26, 1930

---

Well - I do for now have the first Senorita finished in July 1930 - maybe I´ll have to push my DB datings at that time by one month.

Do you eventually get the accuracy of my General Database as-is?  As told you in the past - but not trusted by you.

As for the B&D brand - I do for now take, that you can´t find a registration of this late 1922 or so. Neither could I. So don´t dispair!

Polle

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/14/2014:  05:55:58

Peter,

We have a problem - both you and I are too fast moving - LOL!  

Hence our crossing postings above.

However - thanks for your search for a B&D brand. The lack of a registration - as proved by you - is in fact important for our researches.

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/14/2014:  05:59:01

Thats all I can find for now.  Bacon and the B&D brand I can find (With GRETSCH ties) but dates dont make much sense.  Both listed as Feb 02 1925.

tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=722...tusSearch

tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=722...ch​

 

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/14/2014:  06:14:15

Peter - thanks for the great and fast work - and you´re correct - the listings don´t give us some help.

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/14/2014:  08:25:45

I do wonder however what is significant about Feb 02 1925 that Gretsch purchased from Bacon Banjo Co? The only thing I can see is maybe only applicable to the approximate stepped flange instruments go forward...

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/14/2014:  09:05:31

re: (Bacon & Day Banjo Mute) - Filed May 1928 - google.com/patents/US1800588

attached is an actual picture with the exact approved date: hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...22014.jpg from (beezaboy - John Hoft's Collection)

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/14/2014:  09:37:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polle Flaunoe

quote:

---

Originally posted by petercorfield

Here is the Senorita Trademark - tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=713...tusSearch with first use listed as Aug. 26, 1930

---

Well - I do for now have the first Senorita finished in July 1930 - maybe I´ll have to push my DB datings at that time by one month.

Do you eventually get the accuracy of my General Database as-is?  As told you in the past - but not trusted by you.

As for the B&D brand - I do for now take, that you can´t find a registration of this late 1922 or so. Neither could I. So don´t dispair!

Polle

---

Yes I see how the changes occur now.  A work in progress no doubt with good firm reinforced necks & dowels in the ground. haha.

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/14/2014 09:37:33

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/14/2014:  23:42:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by petercorfield

re: (Bacon & Day Banjo Mute) - Filed May 1928 - google.com/patents/US1800588

attached is an actual picture with the exact approved date: hangoutstorage.com/banjohangou...22014.jpg from (beezaboy - John Hoft's Collection)

---

Here´s my present stock of mute assemblies:

From this I picked a pre-filing example - do notice the "name" only:

- and a post-filing example - now with a Pat. Pend. added:

All post-patent examples - also those manufactured by Gretsch after WW II - do carry the patent date - as shown on John´s example.

BTW - also the mute was revised/altered in the first years - the difference between the 3 versions goes for the activation method - and thus the spring placements. 

Polle

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/15/2014:  03:28:26

Unfortunately, I've never managed to acquire one on my purchases; not even stuffed away in the case.  They all seem to have been removed (as the first thing to come off of a player).  I've tried more searches for additional information of "B&D" peghead trademark, but everything keeps showing up Feb 02 1925 along with that Bacon Logo.  Im baffled as to what that date represents...

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/15/2014:  03:50:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by petercorfield

Unfortunately, I've never managed to acquire one on my purchases; not even stuffed away in the case.  They all seem to have been removed (as the first thing to come off of a player).  I've tried more searches for additional information of "B&D" peghead trademark, but everything keeps showing up Feb 02 1925 along with that Bacon Logo.  Im baffled as to what that date represents...

---

Neither I do have a clue about this pre-Gretsch date.

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 02/18/2014:  14:03:28

Polle and Peter --

Since Gretsch bought the remnants of The Bacon Banjo Co., in early 1940, they also acquired ALL of the Bacon Patents, Copyrights, Trademarks, etc. -- because Gretsch was the NEW owner of the Bacon Patents, Copyrights, Trademarks, etc....

Therefore, it was in their best interest to either re-file the earlier (still valid) Patents, Copyrights, Trademarks, under the Gretsch name... AND/OR file for the typical extension periods for Patents, Copyrights, Trademarks -- as allowed under US law, at the time.

THAT is why Gretsch would have a 1925 Bacon patent, listed under their name. (Gretsch also owned the 1960s ODE Patents and Trademarks -- which they eventually acquired, after Baldwin went bankrupt, in 1980.)

Best-- Ed Britt

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/18/2014:  15:45:00

Ed have you any thoughts on seeing the original B&D or Bacon trademark filings? I've searched the published indexes at length, but nothing comes up other than this refiled 1925 first use date.

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/18/2014:  18:38:18

A gold mine of a find here Polle

Ne Plus Ultra TradeMark - tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=022...tusSearch

​B&D Felt Grip - tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=020...tusSearch

Sultana - tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=027...tusSearch

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/19/2014:  06:51:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by petercorfield

A gold mine of a find here Polle

Ne Plus Ultra TradeMark - tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=022...tusSearch

​B&D Felt Grip - tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=020...tusSearch

Sultana - tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=027...tusSearch

---

Feb 02 1925 is a key date for B&D labeling now referenced as the first use date of the "B&D Felt Grip".  This coincides with the B&D filing.

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/20/2014:  08:41:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrittDLD1

Polle and Peter --

Since Gretsch bought the remnants of The Bacon Banjo Co., in early 1940, they also acquired ALL of the Bacon Patents, Copyrights, Trademarks, etc. -- because Gretsch was the NEW owner of the Bacon Patents, Copyrights, Trademarks, etc....

Therefore, it was in their best interest to either re-file the earlier (still valid) Patents, Copyrights, Trademarks, under the Gretsch name... AND/OR file for the typical extension periods for Patents, Copyrights, Trademarks -- as allowed under US law, at the time.

THAT is why Gretsch would have a 1925 Bacon patent, listed under their name. (Gretsch also owned the 1960s ODE Patents and Trademarks -- which they eventually acquired, after Baldwin went bankrupt, in 1980.)

 

Best-- Ed Britt

 

---

Ed, the puzzling fact that no B&D filing cannot be found anywhere is baffling given your statement.  The date of Feb 02 1925 has been linked to the B&D Felt Pick only.  Could it be that Bacon Banjo (under Bacon & Day) never filed their "B&D" but rather tied it to some other stamp?  Also - do you know Ed when they launched their strings?  I've found rough references in the Musical Trades, but thought you might know...

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/20/2014:  23:51:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by petercorfield

A gold mine of a find here Polle

Ne Plus Ultra TradeMark - tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=022...tusSearch

​B&D Felt Grip - tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=020...tusSearch

Sultana - tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=027...tusSearch

---

The Ne Plus Ultra TradeMark - as mentioned continuously used since August 1925 - doesn´t fit facts - the first example in my DB is from March 1924 - and many examples were made during the rest of 1924 and the first half of 1925.

The Sultana TradeMark does however fit the DB absolutely perfect. The document says May 1929 - for now the first example in my DB is from June that year.

Polle

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/21/2014:  01:15:41

PS!

And yes - Feb. 2d 1925 seems to go for the Felt-Grip - the one and only Patent or TradeMark for now known, where B&D is mentioned. However only in the logo - not in the text.

BTW - what the heck is a Felt-Grip?  LOL!

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/21/2014:  01:22:10

PPS!

I had a closer look at the drawings for the soft pedal mute - the one shown is the second or third version - the first version is indirectly (via a spring link) activated - not directly as shown.

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/21/2014:  01:59:38

Thats great about the Sultana.   Could it be that "Ne Plus Ultra" was stamped somewhere other than in the logo, maybe the arm rest starting on that date?  I havent been able to find any pictures of these picks.  I cant imagine that a felt pick would sound all that great.  I did a couple recordings last night of the 1925 Model I have for sale...  These banjos record like a dream...  I put one up on my profile...  Its not long, nor my style...  But gives a glimpse of its sound.

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/21/2014 02:01:04

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 02/21/2014:  02:34:30

Peter,

The for now earliest use of the "NE PLUS ULTRA" term:

This banjo is an one-of-a-kind B&D Montana Silver Bell No. 8 Ne Plus Ultra tenor - SN 12056 - manufactured March 1924 - btw. most likely the first 23" scale SB tenor ever - and one of the absolutely first SB examples fitted with ALL of the "new" features - Oettinger TP, soft pedal mute and Ludwig Planet tuners.

Plus - with one of the absolutely first laminated resonator backs (behind the Pyralin cover).

Polle

Edited by - Polle Flaunoe on 02/21/2014 02:40:49

UnknownUser - Posted - 02/21/2014:  03:02:39

WOW!.  May need some clarification.  So 12054 & 12055 were shortscales?  Or do you mean this (i.e. 12056) is the first NPU with a 23" scale?  Seems from your DB, that it may be a bit of both if it is the first known 23" scale.

Edited by - UnknownUser on 02/21/2014 03:12:35