I will start this thread by saying that what makes a banjo a banjo is that it has a stretched membrane, or head, and that is the most important element of the banjo sound, period, bar none. Days from now, at the end, I will post sound file comparisons of a banjo with a stretched head and these wooden instruments which are the same as a banjo in size and proportion, but have a wooden sounding board, like a guitar and we will be able to hear the difference.
I will post this in several sections to allow for questions and comments,leading up to the sound files. If there is no interest, then I will save myself some trouble.
Most “banjo-this-and-thats”, like a “banjo ukulele” are banjo pots with some other kind of neck, for instance a banjo pot with a mandolin neck. Here’s a picture of a “banjo and guitar orchestra” and you can see many different instruments of different sizes made with banjo pots, all of which required special playing technique, etc. -in other words, a “banjo” that could be played by a mandolin, bass or guitar player. Here’s a picture of a “banjo and guitar orchestra”. Obviously, the “missing link” is in here somewhere.
The other side of the coin is an instrument that’s not a banjo, but can be played by a banjo player and is the same size, proportion and tuning as a banjo - in other words another kind of "pot" with no head but a banjo neck. Such a thing was the so called “banjo-lute”. I made one back in 1964 with a fiberglass body and showed it to Eric Weissberg, who said he would buy one if I made a few modifications. I was in school, designing a guitar, too busy at the time to follow through- c’est la vie - a missed opportunity. I later played it to great effect in a theatrical production of “Spoon River Anthology”, switching back and forth with the banjo. I first learned about it on an old Walter Forbes album, where it was played on some spooky murder ballads like “Down in the Willow Garden” and “Lost Jimmie Whalen”. They are ethereal sounding and harp-like. Great in minor keys.
For about the past 20 years, I have wanted to make another banjo-lute, but a better one that sounded good, and have always been too busy. A recent commission got me back into “guitar luthier mode”, and I decided to do it.
They have a 5-string banjo neck so can be played by a banjo player without having to learn anything new except for a few modifications in technique. Sound wise, they are at the other end of the spectrum from a banjo, with a lot of sustain, and they have a much quieter voice, so a good instrument for a banjo player to have; good for practicing with as well, especially in a situation where people are complaining about the noise.
Historically, the idea was developed by the August Pollman Company in 1887, and they were quite popular in the 1880s. Not many survive. Here’s a pic of some very fancy old ones built by Pehr Anderberg for Pollman. They were called “Mandoline Banjos” and “Banjo Lutes”.
There are similar instruments made today called “Banjolas”, a name I really detest; “Banjola” sounds like something you wind up or is hydraulically powered and it plays automatically through a megaphone or a device on a Victorian merry-go round that plays a banjo with mechanical fingers while the carousel goes around. Sit on the horse that goes up-and-down and hear the banjola play Oh Susanna.
So, anyway, for what it’s worth, I am not calling these “Banjolas”.
As you can see in the pictures above, the old ones had movable bridges and tailpieces like a banjo or mandolin. I decided to use a fixed pin-bridge, the idea being that it would be louder and have more presence in a group if the banjo player wanted to switch to this for some songs. The biggest problem, I thought, was that this would not have much volume,and I don’t want to put a pickup on it.
I thought this might be interesting to banjo makers since it is a hybrid kind of instrument, with a banjo neck, played like a banjo, and has many of the same design considerations that go into making banjos. Half way between a banjo and guitar, I’d say. I was also entranced by the idea of the bouzouki, which has paired strings. After starting on the 5-string one, I decided,while I was at it and had all the forms, jigs and fixtures cluttering up the shop, to make two of these, a 5 string version, and a 9 string version with the main 4 strings paired.
I did several things to maximize the volume:
(1) made the body as large as it could be and still fit in a resonator banjo case
(2) used a 26.55” scale as opposed to a shorter one
(3) used a pin bridge
(4) made the top from douglasfir
(5) heavier strings than I would use on a regular banjo
Here’s my drawing:
Here’s a drawing showing it side by side with a banjo. You can see that the proportions are the same. It will fit in a resonator banjo case:
Because I like cherry and maple, I decided to make one from cherry, and the other from maple. Maybe there will be some difference in sound (although I doubt it). Here’s the cherry, which has a nice figure. I have been saving a billet of this for a while waiting for something to make out of it Cherry is becoming popular now that Martin has started making cherry guitars, and the good stuff is becoming pricey; some suppliers now charge the same for figured cherry as rosewood.
The figured wood is extremely difficult to plane, and I wish I had a thickness sander. I may make a simple one if I decide to make more of these instruments or guitars down the road.
Here’s the maple:
I had to make a lot of forms and jigs for this, but I can use them again the next time around.
The bending iron for the sides is made from a piece of black pipe heated by a heat gun:
The figured wood is very hard to bend without the figure splitting. I
Here is a pic of the sides in the form:
After that, I put “kerfing” around the inside of the sides,which will be used to attach the top and back.You clamp this on with clothespins:
You have to put bracing in the back, glue it into a form that gives it a crown, then glue it on with clamps made from 1/4”carriage bolts, wing nuts and dowel rod sections with cork faces,which I made:
This is held in a plywood “work board”.
The finished assembly then looks like this,and you can see the crown on it a little bit:
The top is made from douglasfir, which I chose after reading a lot about guitar tops. I am after volume and presence here. Here’s a blurb from a website about guitar tops:
“Douglas Fir Guitar Wood - An ideal wood for acoustic guitar soundboards, backs and sides and bracing wood. The tonal qualities of old growth Douglas fir are astonishing. Response, projection, sustain and harmonic complexity are all notably superior. Fine tight straight grain and figured Douglas fir make amazing guitars…! ” Why not, I say.
Here’s my piece:
I have an AAA sitka spruce guitar top blank in the shop, and this dougfir taps much better (IMO) for what I am after.
Next, I will show how the top is done, then the necks, then the assembly and setup.
I will start this thread by saying that what makes a banjo a banjo is that it has a stretched membrane, or head, and that is the most important element of the banjo sound, period, bar none. Days from now, at the end, I will post sound file comparisons of a banjo with a stretched head and these wooden instruments which are the same as a banjo in size and proportion, but have a wooden sounding board, like a guitar and we will be able to hear the difference.
I will post this in several sections to allow for questions and comments,leading up to the sound files. If there is no interest, then I will save myself some trouble.
Most “banjo-this-and-thats”, like a “banjo ukulele” are banjo pots with some other kind of neck, for instance a banjo pot with a mandolin neck. Here’s a picture of a “banjo and guitar orchestra” and you can see many different instruments of different sizes made with banjo pots, all of which required special playing technique, etc. -in other words, a “banjo” that could be played by a mandolin, bass or guitar player. Here’s a picture of a “banjo and guitar orchestra”. Obviously, the “missing link” is in here somewhere.
The other side of the coin is an instrument that’s not a banjo, but can be played by a banjo player and is the same size, proportion and tuning as a banjo - in other words another kind of "pot" with no head but a banjo neck. Such a thing was the so called “banjo-lute”. I made one back in 1964 with a fiberglass body and showed it to Eric Weissberg, who said he would buy one if I made a few modifications. I was in school, designing a guitar, too busy at the time to follow through- c’est la vie - a missed opportunity. I later played it to great effect in a theatrical production of “Spoon River Anthology”, switching back and forth with the banjo. I first learned about it on an old Walter Forbes album, where it was played on some spooky murder ballads like “Down in the Willow Garden” and “Lost Jimmie Whalen”. They are ethereal sounding and harp-like. Great in minor keys.
For about the past 20 years, I have wanted to make another banjo-lute, but a better one that sounded good, and have always been too busy. A recent commission got me back into “guitar luthier mode”, and I decided to do it.
They have a 5-string banjo neck so can be played by a banjo player without having to learn anything new except for a few modifications in technique. Sound wise, they are at the other end of the spectrum from a banjo, with a lot of sustain, and they have a much quieter voice, so a good instrument for a banjo player to have; good for practicing with as well, especially in a situation where people are complaining about the noise.
Historically, the idea was developed by the August Pollman Company in 1887, and they were quite popular in the 1880s. Not many survive. Here’s a pic of some very fancy old ones built by Pehr Anderberg for Pollman. They were called “Mandoline Banjos” and “Banjo Lutes”.
There are similar instruments made today called “Banjolas”, a name I really detest; “Banjola” sounds like something you wind up or is hydraulically powered and it plays automatically through a megaphone or a device on a Victorian merry-go round that plays a banjo with mechanical fingers while the carousel goes around. Sit on the horse that goes up-and-down and hear the banjola play Oh Susanna.
So, anyway, for what it’s worth, I am not calling these “Banjolas”.
As you can see in the pictures above, the old ones had movable bridges and tailpieces like a banjo or mandolin. I decided to use a fixed pin-bridge, the idea being that it would be louder and have more presence in a group if the banjo player wanted to switch to this for some songs. The biggest problem, I thought, was that this would not have much volume,and I don’t want to put a pickup on it.
I thought this might be interesting to banjo makers since it is a hybrid kind of instrument, with a banjo neck, played like a banjo, and has many of the same design considerations that go into making banjos. Half way between a banjo and guitar, I’d say. I was also entranced by the idea of the bouzouki, which has paired strings. After starting on the 5-string one, I decided,while I was at it and had all the forms, jigs and fixtures cluttering up the shop, to make two of these, a 5 string version, and a 9 string version with the main 4 strings paired.
I did several things to maximize the volume:
(1) made the body as large as it could be and still fit in a resonator banjo case
(2) used a 26.55” scale as opposed to a shorter one
(3) used a pin bridge
(4) made the top from douglasfir
(5) heavier strings than I would use on a regular banjo
Here’s my drawing:
Here’s a drawing showing it side by side with a banjo. You can see that the proportions are the same. It will fit in a resonator banjo case:
Because I like cherry and maple, I decided to make one from cherry, and the other from maple. Maybe there will be some difference in sound (although I doubt it). Here’s the cherry, which has a nice figure. I have been saving a billet of this for a while waiting for something to make out of it Cherry is becoming popular now that Martin has started making cherry guitars, and the good stuff is becoming pricey; some suppliers now charge the same for figured cherry as rosewood.
The figured wood is extremely difficult to plane, and I wish I had a thickness sander. I may make a simple one if I decide to make more of these instruments or guitars down the road.
Here’s the maple:
I had to make a lot of forms and jigs for this, but I can use them again the next time around.
The bending iron for the sides is made from a piece of black pipe heated by a heat gun:
The figured wood is very hard to bend without the figure splitting. I
Here is a pic of the sides in the form:
After that, I put “kerfing” around the inside of the sides,which will be used to attach the top and back.You clamp this on with clothespins:
You have to put bracing in the back, glue it into a form that gives it a crown, then glue it on with clamps made from 1/4”carriage bolts, wing nuts and dowel rod sections with cork faces,which I made:
This is held in a plywood “work board”.
The finished assembly then looks like this,and you can see the crown on it a little bit:
The top is made from douglasfir, which I chose after reading a lot about guitar tops. I am after volume and presence here. Here’s a blurb from a website about guitar tops:
“Douglas Fir Guitar Wood - An ideal wood for acoustic guitar soundboards, backs and sides and bracing wood. The tonal qualities of old growth Douglas fir are astonishing. Response, projection, sustain and harmonic complexity are all notably superior. Fine tight straight grain and figured Douglas fir make amazing guitars…! ” Why not, I say.
Here’s my piece:
I have an AAA sitka spruce guitar top blank in the shop, and this dougfir taps much better (IMO) for what I am after.
Next, I will show how the top is done, then the necks, then the assembly and setup.
In the photo you posted all of the "banjos" are 5-string banjos. They are all played using the same "technique." I see regular banjos, banjeaurines and a bass banjo.
I also see "Neapolitan Mandolins" and guitars. Nothing out of the ordinary. If you are really interested in banjo clubs I can post some period documentation on them.
I'm unclear exactly where you're going with this, but if you want to compare a wood-topped banjo to a conventional stretched membrane you can find the details for construction as well as the sound files of a wood top in my topic here:
I'm not trying to "go anywhere" with it. Just to show some pictures of how to make them and some sound files of how they sound compared to a regular banjo for those who have never heard anything of this nature or seen how they are made in the event anyone is interested.
I will put a page about this on my website and offer it as an instrument I can make
Sorry If I have given the impression that I some axe to grind. I don't. My primary interest is in making banjos. I just like this kind of instrument as a variant, and the fact I can play it right away when it is finished leads to some interesting comparative sound files
I will probably never build an instrument, and am a mediocre carpenter at best, but I thoroughly read and enjoy all of your posts. You are a creative and detail oriented person and I particularly enjoy reading/seeing your descriptions of your thought process and how it drives your build process. I often share your threads with an artist/architect friend of mine who really appreciates your work and your use of beautiful scale drawings.
I can never offer any useful or constructive feedback, but I hope you realize how appreciative I am (and I am sure many others are) that you take the time to allow me (us) the opportunity to get a glimpse of what you do.
Like Joel said, all of the banjos in that orchestra photo are 5-strings, played fingerstyle (what is now known as classic banjo). There is nothing odd in that photo and there aren't any banjo ukes.
Like Joel said, all of the banjos in that orchestra photo are 5-strings, played fingerstyle (what is now known as classic banjo). There is nothing odd in that photo and there aren't any banjo ukes.
Sorry I showed that picture. I never realized it would detract so much from the simple story I am trying to tell.
Like Joel said, all of the banjos in that orchestra photo are 5-strings, played fingerstyle (what is now known as classic banjo). There is nothing odd in that photo and there aren't any banjo ukes.
Sorry I showed that picture. I never realized it would detract so much from the simple story I am trying to tell.
Your build discussions are great and you are an amazing craftsman. The only reason I was commenting on the photo is that the misinformation regarding banjo clubs and "classic banjo" don't need anything added to it.
You have a good following due to the high quality of your work and artistic ability to present it in photos. I don't want to "hijack" your discussion but there are a small few of us who are trying to end the myths about banjo history.
There is no mystery about that era. By "missing link" I presume you are referring to the Gold Tone product. There is no banjo in that photo that resembles that. All the instruments depicted and their roles are known. The director in the photo, Paul Eno, was a famous composer. His compositions are still being played and recorded today. I would be happy to provide sheet music on some of his more popular numbers.
Here is Fred Van Eps playing "Ragtime Episode" by Paul Eno. FVE played gut strings and bare fingertips and that is what you are hearing in the recording.
With the large volume of primary documents available due to digitizing efforts of individuals and libraries the days of speculative history are... history.
I'm not sure how popular the Pollman mandolin bodied banjos were. Usually when a successful product is marketed, other people try to cash in on it with knockoffs. As far as I know this did not happen on these but with very few exceptions. One could also argue that the lack of extant examples is a representation of the market share that they held when compared to the extant regular banjos from the same period. There also seems to be nearly 1000 to 1 photos of people holding regular banjos v. the Pollman mandolin banjos.
Pollman was a "Jobber"-- meaning that he distributed stuff made by other factories, sometimes with his name/brand and manufactured to his specs. The likely manufacturers was Buckbee or Martin Brothers Guitars (not that Martin-- the Martin Bros that was making the "Dobson" closed back banjos in the 1880s). If Buckbee was making them, he would have sold a version to other jobbers like he did with his trade banjos and we just don't see those.
I've never been able to get a clear answer on how they were strung. Mandolins were wire, but banjos used gut or silk. The lack of info in period magazines and newspapers could also indicate a lack of popularity.
From what I can see in the picture of the Pollman ones, the one on the right seems to be strung with steel strings, and the one on the left with gut, but it's hard to tell,and who knows how they were originally strung. I know from reading about SS Stewart that he was a staunch exponent of reading music as written, and considered tablature to be a travesty, so the orchestra in the picture would most likely be playing from sheet music, single notes and not frailing.
In the case of the instruments I am building, I intend to play something akin to bluegrass music on them with finger picks, not classical at all, so I am really not re-creating a "period instrument" here, nor playing music of the era when the original ones were made. I'm sure mine are different in many ways, not knowing how the old ones were made, never actually ever seen let alone measured one.
I first became enamored of this type of instrument while listening to Walter Forbes play such traditional bluegrassy folk tunes as "Take this Hammer"on a Jackson Pollman banjo-lute strung with steel strings and using finger picks in a three finger style.
What I am making is derivative, but not a reproduction. If I am headed anywhere (to answer Rudy's question) , I am not headed towards classic or classical styles, but elsewhere, much the same as Gibson Mastertones, originally designed to play jazz have become the banjo of choice for Bluegrass music. Gibson Mandolins and Martin guitars have undergone a similar re-purposing. Likewise the 9 string one- it is neither a bouzouki or an Irish bouzouki- something else.
Once again, I'm sorry I brought up the historical info. It served only to create confusion.If I could re-edit this thread, I would get rid of that part of it.
I'm really looking forward to this series. I know the banjo lute has never been particularly popular, but I bet most of us would enjoy trying one out. While the fingering will be the same as on a banjo, the effect is completely different, and will probably require modification of technique and choice of material. And it will probably open up some territory--such as slower pieces--that tend to be inaccessible to a banjo with it's limited sustain.
Funny that you mentioned the album by Walter Forbes. I had that album in the early 60's and it inspired me a lot when I started learning to play the banjo. Forbes was a good player, and his use of the banjo lute was almost unique at that time.
I have never heard of using Doug fir as a sound board. I'd imagine it would have pretty good stiffness to weight ratio. It will be interesting to see how it sounds. Looks like you've chosen a good piece of it. Your workmanship on the interior looks nice and clean. (as usual). I like the idea of good fit and finish where it doesn't always show. ( like hidden dovetails) Fortunately it looks like you're going to have a good-sized sound hole, so the inside workmanship is as important as it is on a guitar. And your building forms look like you designed them for long, hard use. I guess you are serious about getting into building more of these instruments. A whole new area of instrument building that's ripe for exploration
Down the road it might be interesting to try it with carved, arch-top and back. Like a Gibson A model mandolin. I think it would not only look great, but would give a much different sound than the flat top. Probably more punch and less sustain.
I'll be following this one closely. I love this kind of stuff.
Joel, I like the recordings. Is he really playing with bare fingers? I would have sworn it sounds like he's using a plectrum. Do you have any recordings of a full banjo orchestra. I can't imagine how horrible that might sound. :->
Joel, I like the recordings. Is he really playing with bare fingers? I would have sworn it sounds like he's using a plectrum.
Now look what you've done, you've angered the spirit of Fred Van Eps, the Lord of Classic Fingerstyle Banjo! Go, heretic, and do penance lest ye Banjo Gods smite thee
Serious answer: the sound is inherent to the style. We cultivate rock-hard calluses on our fingertips and play hard. Classic banjo shouldn't sound "mellow".
Ken, I made a couple of instruments of this type a few years ago - one with a fixed bridge and one with a floating bridge. I put a pair of strings for the 5th course, with separate capos on each so I could experiment with various drone combinations, but the other four courses were single strings. They sound OK, more or less like lap dulcimers. They mostly don't get played much. This is due to the wide string spacing and chunky neck I used, as much as anything else - they simply aren't as comfortable to play as a banjo. I know you won't make that same mistake. I too am really looking forward to seeing and hearing how these turn out.
Yep, bare fingers on gut strings. That is how a nylon string banjo should sound- and do when properly set up. He sounded just like that in the 1950s only faster and cleaner.
Here is a live recording of the ABF "orchestra" at a collectors gathering...
Yep, bare fingers on gut strings. That is how a nylon string banjo should sound- and do when properly set up. He sounded just like that in the 1950s only faster and cleaner.
Here is a live recording of the ABF "orchestra" at a collectors gathering...
Well, whenever I see a half dozen bluegrass banjo players up on stage at the same time, it's usually pretty bad. Having a whole orchestra up there seems like flirting with disaster. But I suppose it's an acquired taste. Like the accordion band I saw last time I was up in San Francisco. :->
I'm really looking forward to this series. I know the banjo lute has never been particularly popular, but I bet most of us would enjoy trying one out. While the fingering will be the same as on a banjo, the effect is completely different, and will probably require modification of technique and choice of material. And it will probably open up some territory--such as slower pieces--that tend to be inaccessible to a banjo with it's limited sustain.
Funny that you mentioned the album by Walter Forbes. I had that album in the early 60's and it inspired me a lot when I started learning to play the banjo. Forbes was a good player, and his use of the banjo lute was almost unique at that time.
I have never heard of using Doug fir as a sound board. I'd imagine it would have pretty good stiffness to weight ratio. It will be interesting to see how it sounds. Looks like you've chosen a good piece of it. Your workmanship on the interior looks nice and clean. (as usual). I like the idea of good fit and finish where it doesn't always show. ( like hidden dovetails) Fortunately it looks like you're going to have a good-sized sound hole, so the inside workmanship is as important as it is on a guitar. And your building forms look like you designed them for long, hard use. I guess you are serious about getting into building more of these instruments. A whole new area of instrument building that's ripe for exploration
Down the road it might be interesting to try it with carved, arch-top and back. Like a Gibson A model mandolin. I think it would not only look great, but would give a much different sound than the flat top. Probably more punch and less sustain.
I'll be following this one closely. I love this kind of stuff.
Joel, I like the recordings. Is he really playing with bare fingers? I would have sworn it sounds like he's using a plectrum. Do you have any recordings of a full banjo orchestra. I can't imagine how horrible that might sound. :->
DD
Dan, Oregon Tone Woods routinely sells and speaks highly of Douglas Fir used as sound board material:
Also, Taylor made a run of 25 high-end production guitars (selling in the 10 grand range, I believe) from pallet wood and a multipiece pine top that wasn't even identified. I believe Bob Taylor got the idea that a run of pallet wood guitars would help to disprove the notion that good sounding instruments are more a matter of the craftsmanship used to make them rather than a strict adherence to the use of specific woods. I'm betting that Ken's instruments are going to sound exceptional for just that reason.
There's also the famous Benedetto arch top made from construction lumber, too.
My first carved top mandolin was made from Douglas Fir as it was cheap and I wasn't about to purchase a good wedge of spruce for my first attempt at carving a top and scroll. It sounded perfectly fine, but didn't look all that great. I sacrificed to the fire gods as an atonement to my multitude of carving sins.
Also, Taylor made a run of 25 high-end production guitars (selling in the 10 grand range, I believe) from pallet wood and a multipiece pine top that wasn't even identified. I believe Bob Taylor got the idea that a run of pallet wood guitars would help to disprove the notion that good sounding instruments are more a matter of the craftsmanship used to make them rather than a strict adherence to the use of specific woods. I'm betting that Ken's instruments are going to sound exceptional for just that reason.
There's also the famous Benedetto arch top made from construction lumber, too.
My first carved top mandolin was made from Douglas Fir as it was cheap and I wasn't about to purchase a good wedge of spruce for my first attempt at carving a top and scroll. It sounded perfectly fine, but didn't look all that great. I sacrificed to the fire gods as an atonement to my multitude of carving sins.
I'm betting you're right on that. Though, I've never seen Ken use any lower-grade wood. And I'm sure his fir top will prove to be a very good piece.
By the way, it's good to see you posting on the forum again. Your presence has been rather scarce recently.
Also, Taylor made a run of 25 high-end production guitars (selling in the 10 grand range, I believe) from pallet wood and a multipiece pine top that wasn't even identified. I believe Bob Taylor got the idea that a run of pallet wood guitars would help to disprove the notion that good sounding instruments are more a matter of the craftsmanship used to make them rather than a strict adherence to the use of specific woods. I'm betting that Ken's instruments are going to sound exceptional for just that reason.
There's also the famous Benedetto arch top made from construction lumber, too.
My first carved top mandolin was made from Douglas Fir as it was cheap and I wasn't about to purchase a good wedge of spruce for my first attempt at carving a top and scroll. It sounded perfectly fine, but didn't look all that great. I sacrificed to the fire gods as an atonement to my multitude of carving sins.
I'm betting you're right on that. Though, I've never seen Ken use any lower-grade wood. And I'm sure his fir top will prove to be a very good piece.
By the way, it's good to see you posting on the forum again. Your presence has been rather scarce recently.
DD
I did say that wrong... it was meant to PROVE the notion that craftsmanship trumps material choice.
I do post occasionally; I'm trying to limit my postings to when I think I might have something valuable to say that I haven't already posted before. You can only repeat yourself so many times...
BTW, Rudy, I am aware of the Taylor pallet guitars, and it's partially what made me want to use the dougfir.
I got the wood at Lowe's, believe it or not, I went to two stores and sorted through the 16 foot douglasfir 2X10s and 2X12s untilI found one piece that had a perfect quarter sawn grain, with enough clear sections to make a number of tops. It was physically exhausting sorting through those boards which are heavy, but I got a good piece. usually there are zero good boards.
At any rate,
Bracing the top is much more difficult than the back.
First of all, you have to put the sound-hole rosette in it before you do anything.
The one above is a “store-bought” one from Stewmac with herringbone. I decided to make the other one one.You glue itn up and make slices like bologna, much the same as you would do for purfling or a fancy rim cap on a banjo. So now I have several of these:
I actually made a lot of bindings and purflings, as I would for a banjo rim and neck:
The bracing I am using in the top is scalloped “X” bracing, as in a steel string guitar. The braces are very light, made from spruce
Here you can see what it looks like. You have to have figured out where the bridge is going to be placed, since it’s not like a banjo where you can move the bridge. The bridge plate is inside the top:
Before you glue the top on, you have to make a caul and clamp setup to clamp the bridge on after the topis finished, which is done through the sound-hole. You also have to make a story stick to tell you where that is under there after the top is on.
Then you glue on the top, and the body is built. In the background of the shot below is a banjo pot I am working on.
Now for the part we are all familiar with- the neck. I am making two of them. They both have 26.55” scales, and one has a long peghead for the 8 strings. I had to make sure it would fit in the case.
Here are some fingerboard layouts.I drew up a 26.25”scale,a 26.55”one and a 26.9”one.I went with the 26.55”one,which is my favorite banjo scale.
The neck is bolt-on, and I am using an anchor exactly like I would with a Rudy rod. Here you can see the heel end of the neck. The brass anchor is inside:
I had to get 114mm truss rods because the neck is so short.
Both necks are finished with only lacquer sealer on the playing part. I have kind of gotten used to that kind of neck finish and am warming up to it:
The necks are cross-banded and multiply laminated with cross-banding i under the fingerboard acting as side markers:
So, the next thing is to make the bridges and string them up.
Ken, I don't know which is prettier. Your finished work, or your work in progress. I like both necks a lot. But I love the inlay pattern on the Celtic-looking cherry neck. Both look good enough to eat. Nice to see you exploring rosette building. It's a really satisfying bit of luthier work and just the kind of thing I can see you excelling at. The possibilities are limitless, and it is one of the most interesting mergings of art and craft.
It's easy to see that you're having fun with this project.
DD
P.S. what is the wood you've used for the peghead overlay on the cherry neck? You've got me stumped on that one. My best guess would be Sycamore.
It looks very good. I am wondering about the bridge plate. I built a couple of OM size guitars following Jonathan Kinkead's patterns in his book, and he has the bridge plate not quite touching the braces around it. I don't know why or if it matters, but I was curious when I saw that yours seems to fit tightly. I agree that it would be nice to try this with a carved archtop like a mandolin, and while the carving does take some time the bracing is much simpler so it kind of all balances out.
It looks very good. I am wondering about the bridge plate. I built a couple of OM size guitars following Jonathan Kinkead's patterns in his book, and he has the bridge plate not quite touching the braces around it. I don't know why or if it matters, but I was curious when I saw that yours seems to fit tightly. I agree that it would be nice to try this with a carved archtop like a mandolin, and while the carving does take some time the bracing is much simpler so it kind of all balances out.
Zach
Zach, On all the guitar X bracing I've ever seen the bridge plate fits right up in the angle of the braces and touches them, so that's the way I do it.
I might do an arch top one day, but I owe my wife a viola first.
Ken, I don't know which is prettier. Your finished work, or your work in progress. I like both necks a lot. But I love the inlay pattern on the Celtic-looking cherry neck. Both look good enough to eat. Nice to see you exploring rosette building. It's a really satisfying bit of luthier work and just the kind of thing I can see you excelling at. The possibilities are limitless, and it is one of the most interesting mergings of art and craft.
It's easy to see that you're having fun with this project.
DD
P.S. what is the wood you've used for the peghead overlay on the cherry neck? You've got me stumped on that one. My best guess would be Sycamore.
Dan, Thank you!!
I don't usually do abalone, but somehow on this one, the green color called out to me and I wanted to keep it simple.
The peghead veneer is quarter cut cherry with a figure. You'll see it better when I post pictures of the finished instrument because the body is made from similar wood.
Here's the squared log it was cut from. You can see the figure even in the rough cut.
Interesting topic, can't wait to hear the results. I've been interested in trying a similar thing, but I'm not a builder, so I considered looking for an Irish bouzouki, hopefully wide enough to separate the 4th string pair into a slightly heavier wound 4th, and a 5th string shortened with a railroad spike. Strings 1-3 would still be unwound pairs, using 2 sets of banjo strings. I still wouldn't be able to test the pin bridge vs floating bridge sound - volume and tone (harmonic content) I'd have a concern about the volume achievable with metal fingerpicks on string pairs vs a flat pick, and the effect of increased sustain on that style of playing. I haven't yet worked up the confidence to buy/order a bouzouki.
First off, I wanted to use banjo strings on this and tune it like a banjo - G4 D3 G3 B3 D4. I need ball end strings because of the pin bridge, so I ordered some, which were supposed to be 11-13-16-24(W)-10. I was thinking the 5th string ought to be 11, but I'd try the 10.
When the strings arrived, the package was mis-marked, and they were 10-12-14-22(W)-10.Since I wanted to get it tuned up, I used them. I think they are too light, but good for an initial test. The 9 string is tricky for me to play because of the extra strings, and you have to be precise and forthright at fretting. I am getting better. The sound files I'm posting are with the 10-12-14-22-10 strings.
I called the company, and they sent me what I really wanted,which is 11-13-16-26(w)-11.
I strung the 5 string with those, and it sounds better. Maybe I'll post another file with the heavier strings. I have been playing it a lot lately to get more used to it, so my sound files are rough.
Because this instrument is going to have a lot of sustain, yet be strung with banjo strings, I thought I’d better make a compensated bridge saddle. I did it in such a way that I can switch the saddle out and make different ones if necessary. I first tried a lignum vitae saddle with movable dovetail pieces, but it didn’t work- the strings moved the sliding pieces. Here’s what it looked like:
The beauty of this is that you can adjust the height of it to get the action you want much more easily than a guitar bridge, but as I said. This didn't work - best laid plans and all that.
I then switched to one with a fixed compensated saddle glued on to the lignum vitae -same idea, but no “little teeth”. This is made from Corian®, which I use for my “ZipNuts”.You could make it out of bone or whatever. Corian® works great.
Here’s what it looks like glued on to the lignum vitae saddle insert:
Finally, I strung them up. I had a few problems: first of all the strings I ordered turned out not to be the same gauges they were supposed to be, the sliding dovetail bridge didn’twork, and I had to reset the neck angle on the lute-easy to do with a bolt-on neck.I realized you need a piece of “connective tissue” between the body and neck, which allows you to do a lot of adjustments. I used black wood for this. The next one of these I make,I will design this piece into the instrument a little better.
Here’s what they look like:
I call them “Lutey”and Zookie”. I tried to give them a little bit of medieval and Celtic flavor - The banjo-lute has inlays from 14th century church in England.
The 9 string one “Zookie” is similar to a bouzouki, and I made the inlays from Green abalone and used a Celtic “uncial” font for the LeVan name on both pegheads:
I am especially fond of the cherry wood on the 9 string.
It’s a dream to tune and play the 5 string. the 9-string is harder to tune because of the paired strings, and I am not a "Nashville cat who plays as smooth a country water", but I am getting better at it. It’s harder to play because you have to be more accurate with finger placement and fret the strings firmly. Interestingly you can do double pull-offs with the paired strings, which I didn’t think would work, and someone told me you wouldn’t be able to play it with finger picks,which, of course, you can.
I’m going to post some mercifully short sound files.
I thought I would do something simple that everybody knows, like Darlin’ Pal of Mine on both of them. The comparison may come in handy later on in various discussions.
Ideally, each of these would lend itself to different tunes and maybe tunings. I am just playing the same tune on both to provide an “apples-to-apples” comparison. If there is any interest, I may do more sound files later on. I am also including some simple descending scales starting at the 12th fret.
As I said earlier, they are both strung 10-12-14-22W-10,which is what I use on most banjos. Yesterday, I switched the 5 string one to 11-13-16-26(W)-11, and it sounds much more solid (I think). I like the sound of the 9 string one, although I would change the drone string to an 11 ga and probably change the 4th wound strings to phosphor bronze.
They sound like, um, banjo-lutes. I really like the sound of the 9-string the best. I suspect the extra set of long strings drives the top harder. Much like a Pollman, they lack bottom-end (bass) and end up sounding a bit thin and trebly.
Too much sustain for fast stuff though (just my opinion, of course). I imagine they would do quite well in slower stuff where you can really use the sustain.
I've wanted one for some time but never found one that suited me. I have had plans to build one on the Weyman "mandolute" model...might have to alter those plans to go with a 9-string now.
A low-tech alternative, befitting those of us with more thumbs than fingers: ;)
The long defunct Hughes Dulcimer Co. of Denver, CO sold kits. They called this one a banjo. I recall putting in the frets -- the highest ones not so well-placed. So I guess assembly required a hack saw, a coping saw, and a file -- also sandpaper, Elmer's Glue, and some rubber bands. For years, it had steel strings and sounded a lot like a dulcimer. I still have it out on a music stand at home. In the right hands, I'm sure it could hold its own.
A low-tech alternative, befitting those of us with more thumbs than fingers: ;)
The long defunct Hughes Dulcimer Co. of Denver, CO sold kits. They called this one a banjo. I recall putting in the frets -- the highest ones not so well-placed. So I guess assembly required a hack saw, a coping saw, and a file -- also sandpaper, Elmer's Glue, and some rubber bands. For years, it had steel strings and sounded a lot like a dulcimer. I still have it out on a music stand at home. In the right hands, I'm sure it could hold its own.
David, very cool!
I must admit, I was thinking of you when I was building these. The way the notes play out is vastly different from a banjo. I was trying to picture what one of your graphs would look like with these and whether there would be more frequencies.
You don't get that "crack", but there is a plosive sound. After playing these two things, I got out a banjo and had a hard time playing it because I had to readjust my timing. It was weird. Hope said that my timing was much better on the lutes. I don't know why.
They sound like, um, banjo-lutes. I really like the sound of the 9-string the best. I suspect the extra set of long strings drives the top harder. Much like a Pollman, they lack bottom-end (bass) and end up sounding a bit thin and trebly.
Too much sustain for fast stuff though (just my opinion, of course). I imagine they would do quite well in slower stuff where you can really use the sustain.
I've wanted one for some time but never found one that suited me. I have had plans to build one on the Weyman "mandolute" model...might have to alter those plans to go with a 9-string now.
Marc,
I have to say that these, particularly the 5 string when I put a 26 ga 4th string on it, has a better low end than a banjo, relative to the high end. It sounds pretty much like the mid range of a guitar.
I agree that they are not as loud as a banjo, nor do they sound the same at all. I would characterize them as having a sound somewhat like a Dobro - they are what they are. I have been playing duets with my wife where she is playing a kind of cello, and I find that these are not as overpowering as a banjo. Of course, if you are playing bluegrass and your group has a D-28 and an F-5, you would need a banjo to balance the volume.
The files I posted earlier had the lighter gauge strings, and the tune was in the key of A.
I thought it would be interesting to do some files in the key of G where the 4th string is played open. I don't know a good tune in C tuning, but that would be better.
Here are two tunes with the low string - once again, mercifully short.
This is a very interesting thread. Even though I am listening with an ancient laptop and cheap headphones your instruments sound good to me, different but good. If the cello you mentioned above is the one you brought to Showcase I can believe that the two instruments sound good together. At this moment I prefer the 5 string to the 9 string, but that could change at any moment.
This is a very interesting thread. Even though I am listening with an ancient laptop and cheap headphones your instruments sound good to me, different but good. If the cello you mentioned above is the one you brought to Showcase I can believe that the two instruments sound good together. At this moment I prefer the 5 string to the 9 string, but that could change at any moment.
Fred
Fred,
Thanks. Yes, the instrument I am referring to is that one Hope was playing at the Showcase, and when I play the banjo with her on Ashokan Farewell, I can't use picks because it's too loud and just doesn't work. With this, I can go "wide open" with finger picks. Meanwhile,when she plays a fiddle tune, I like the banjo better.
Maybe I can make a file of a duet while this thread is still alive.
I'll readily admit that watching all those guitar builders at the Showcase really got me itching to do this - that and the fact that someone commissioned me to make a concert ukulele.
A beautiful pair of instruments Ken. They are a tasteful cross between modern and vintage in styling. With one of these, you could take your five string banjo to the local renaissance faire and look right at home. :-> You did a great job on the design. They have a classic look to them, and the workmanship is your usual excellent. I think your choice of woods, and color combinations are perfect.. They have none of the "home woodworker" look to them that is so commonly seen with hand built instruments. They could have been built in the Fairbanks or Lyon & Healy shops a hundred years ago. They should age particularly well, in both looks and sound.
It might take a while to find what technique and repertoir works best on this instrument, but it would be an enjoyable process. They sound more powerful than what I was expecting. Definitely not a cigar box banjo sound. I think they will make a good frailing instrument. (at least the 5-stringer) The sound on the 9 stringer reminds me a bit of a hammered dulcimer.
I think it would be very interesting to try and frail the 9-stringer. It seems to me it would be easier than to three-finger pick it, but then again I have little experience 3-finger picking with finger picks (say that 3 times fast!). Ken, I know you don't frail but if you ever have a friend come over that does, please let him or her try the 9-stringer.
I think it would be very interesting to try and frail the 9-stringer. It seems to me it would be easier than to three-finger pick it, but then again I have little experience 3-finger picking with finger picks (say that 3 times fast!). Ken, I know you don't frail but if you ever have a friend come over that does, please let him or her try the 9-stringer.
Jon,
As you say, I am not a frailer, but I was playing this along with my wo ife the other day, and I strummed it with finger picks which sounded really good.
I will be taking these instruments,along with a couple of banjos to North Carolina this weekend, and will get a chance to hear a well-known frailer play them, so I'll get a chance to hear that done by a pro and get his feedback.
I strung my 5-course Sobell cittern like a 5-string banjo. I've had it for over thirty years and getting much more joy out of it as a banjo-lute than a mando. I composed Mountain Melody on a wooden banjo, made by Ingo Renner, and recorded it with the Sobell. Wind in My Sails is on my album Banjos Dreaming, in which I combine the sounds of two cello banjos tuned an octave apart, with the Sobell, in an attempt to form a non-stereotypical banjo sound. I'm also a banjo retailer and am looking for banjo-lutes to take to the marketplace, if anyone would like to contact me about that.
Sounds real good Paul. You really take advantage of the sustain the instrument offers. Some of the bass notes on Mountain Melody seem to ring on forever. Can't do that with a regular banjo.
I strung my 5-course Sobell cittern like a 5-string banjo. I've had it for over thirty years and getting much more joy out of it as a banjo-lute than a mando. I composed Mountain Melody on a wooden banjo, made by Ingo Renner, and recorded it with the Sobell. Wind in My Sails is on my album Banjos Dreaming, in which I combine the sounds of two cello banjos tuned an octave apart, with the Sobell, in an attempt to form a non-stereotypical banjo sound. I'm also a banjo retailer and am looking for banjo-lutes to take to the marketplace, if anyone would like to contact me about that.
Hi Paul, very nice.
Since you're a retailer perhaps you can shed light on how the "banjo lute" differs from the commonly available Goldtone Banjola. Other than perhaps the use of a pin bridge I don't see much difference between these instruments.
It's not a new idea, but goes back to the 1880s - it's a traditional instrument.
"Banjola" is just another name for a banjo lute. There are some differences between the ones I made and most of them in the marketplace. Mine have a 26.55" scale, as an example and there are constructional differences as well, but the differences are in the realm of an openback banjo vs a bluegrass banjo- or one kind of banjo vs another -nothing earth shattering. There are some available with pin bridges. The bridge placement on mine uses my banjo placement. I don't know about the other ones out there. You can design them for gut strings, too.
Many "banjolas" have a scale in the 25" realm, which would make the strings slacker than mine and make them quieter, especially with a tailpiece. Octave mandolins have a scale length of 20-23 inches, Irish bouzoukis normally have a scale length of 24-25", but can go up to 26-27", and are strung and tuned quite differently.
Those are the primary differences - the same kind of differences that banjos and guitars have.
What do you mean that it's a "traditional instrument"? It was an instrument built to try and take advantage of a fad in popular music, and the idea never caught on.
Regarding the scale length, ~27'' is standard for a Victorian or Edwardian banjo. Keep in mind that banjos with smaller rims and 26'' scales were typically amateur instruments, and the pros tended to play 28'' scales or longer. Often 27'' was a good compromise. These scale lengths were settled on with gut strings in mind, and the original banjo lutes were made for gut strings just like their regular banjo counterparts. They tend to sound pretty horrible with metal strings, and I've never heard one with gut so I don't know how it would sound... likely not great. There's a reason these things didn't catch on.
What do you mean that it's a "traditional instrument"? It was an instrument built to try and take advantage of a fad in popular music, and the idea never caught on.
Regarding the scale length, ~27'' is standard for a Victorian or Edwardian banjo. Keep in mind that banjos with smaller rims and 26'' scales were typically amateur instruments, and the pros tended to play 28'' scales or longer. Often 27'' was a good compromise. These scale lengths were settled on with gut strings in mind, and the original banjo lutes were made for gut strings just like their regular banjo counterparts. They tend to sound pretty horrible with metal strings, and I've never heard one with gut so I don't know how it would sound... likely not great. There's a reason these things didn't catch on.
What do you mean that it's a "traditional instrument"? It was an instrument built to try and take advantage of a fad in popular music, and the idea never caught on.
Regarding the scale length, ~27'' is standard for a Victorian or Edwardian banjo. Keep in mind that banjos with smaller rims and 26'' scales were typically amateur instruments, and the pros tended to play 28'' scales or longer. Often 27'' was a good compromise. These scale lengths were settled on with gut strings in mind, and the original banjo lutes were made for gut strings just like their regular banjo counterparts. They tend to sound pretty horrible with metal strings, and I've never heard one with gut so I don't know how it would sound... likely not great. There's a reason these things didn't catch on.
Are you talking specifically about banjo lutes, or classic banjo in general?
To me, catching on means sparking the creative imagination in a person. By that measure, Ken's work, and this thread, goes there in abundance. I'd been thinking about contacting some mandola makers when I googled banjo mandola and found this thread, which I was unaware of since I usually don't frequent it. I was surprised that the exact topic I was interested in, was currently being discussed.
Dan, thanks for kind words about my sound.
Rudy, about your question. 'how the "banjo lute" differs from the commonly available Goldtone Banjola', yes, banjola is a common name now that Gold Tone and Edward Victor Dick are using it to name their products. It's a contraction of banjo and mandola. Like Ken, I like the old name banjo-lute to describe a wooden banjo.
The luthier's art really comes into play, with these instruments, in the same way it does with other wooden-bodied instruments, and the reason good builders are so sought after.
The banjo-lute, mandoline-banjo, banjo mandola, banjola - whatever you choose to call it, because there is no definitively correct name - is an opening to explore a unique sound while navigating a 5-string banjo fingerboard and discovering lots of creative musical possibilities.
Thank you for the additional comments and information.
I had researched this a bit when I made my wood-topped banjo (the topic linked in an earlier post) and from what I could ascertain there was a lot of variance in exactly what these "banjo lutes" were called, as well as their exact configuration. I sold many of the plans that I produced and had printed, so there must be quite a few wood-topped banjos that have been built from them.
My foray into making an instrument of this type resulted in my opinion that the tone is pretty, delicate, and lower in volume than a conventional banjo, but certainly is a valid "flavor" to experiment with. It was also patterned after a commercially produced instrument that was referenced in the Museum of Appalachia collection, so must have been produced in the era where manufacturers who were meeting the demands of an inquisitive public.
I am especially fond of the cherry wood on the 9 string.
