jbickfor - Posted - 08/07/2015:  19:56:04

I spent a couple years as a teenager learning clawhammer and then life got in the way and I didn't pick up a banjo for the next 25 years, until a few weeks ago. I'm now absolutely having a ball going back and re-learning the songs I used to play and challenging myself to learn more. In fact, I was thrilled to find that the very songbook I used back then is still in print--The Banjo Player's Songbook by Tim Jumper. It has a nice variety of songs with simple beginner/intermediate arrangements. One stubborn challenge I'm having, though, comes up whenever there's a F# note (4th string, 4th fret) immediately before (or alternating with) a D7 chord brush. The problem is that the fingers on my left hand just aren't long enough to span the distance of fretting the C and A on the 2nd and 3rd strings and reaching for the F# on the 4th string. My pinky lands pretty far back from that 4th fret, and it's a very awkward and uncomfortable stretch to do even that. It also often means my first and second fingers creep up on top of their respective frets, damping those strings. I can pretty much never play a D7 chord cleanly while also fretting the 4th string at the 4th fret. Do other people have this problem? What do you do when your fingers just don't reach? Is there a good workaround? Is this just something that many people struggle with for a long time until they get it?

TucClaw - Posted - 08/07/2015:  20:13:39

When I play a D7 I rarely fret the 4th string.  I find that when a song needs a 7th kind of sound as long as you have the root and the 7 it seems to work. This may not work for every situation but I think playing D7 without the F# works in most tunes I play.  However if you want the full chord just keep practicing.  I could not get it at first either.

jbickfor - Posted - 08/07/2015:  20:35:14

Thank you for your response! That makes me feel a lot better!
Actually, I realize now that I was a little unclear. The reason I mentioned Tim Jumper's book is that it has a number of arrangements where the F# is played, followed immediately by a D7 strum. I'd have no problem with eliminating the F# or playing an alternative note, except that it's usually part of the melody.

Crusty - Posted - 08/07/2015:  21:01:48

Any note at a fret on the 4th string can also be found an octave higher on the 1st string, and the F# on the first string is easier to get with your pinky (though I have to use the classic fretting style with the thumb on the centerline of the neck's backside to get it).  I think most of us just play the 2nd and 3rd string partial D7 though - it's not much different sounding than the full D7.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 08/08/2015:  02:27:49

While it is easy to "get around" problems  like this it sounds like your trouble might be systemic. If you are gripping the neck with your wrist behind the neck you will have trouble with any real reach. The wrist should be forward of the neck so that the fingers arch down on the strings. If the wrist is behind the neck you are effectively shortening your fingers by a couple inches

This allows the hand easy access to the 4th fret of any string from 1st position.

this sort of problem is somewhat exacerbated by the common habit of playing banjo with the neck parallel to the floor. Those who play with the neck pointing more or less 45 degrees upward so the peghead is around and about player face level find it much easier to make these reaches. The closer to parallel to the floor the neck is, the harder it is to easily fret the instrument, since the lower the neck goes the more the left arm has to drop, leaving the wrist behind and somewhat above the neck. The finger length is all wasted simply getting around the neck

Essentially this extremely limits or completely eliminates the use of the 4th finger (Pinky) even for players with fairly long fingers

There are plenty of sites on the internet that have one of the standard drawings of good instrument positioning, although once one learns to keep that wrist out in front of instead of behind the neck actual playing position is no longer such an important issue. Some say that only the "classical" position is useful, but it really has more to do with training the wrist to stay in front of the neck - it is simply that getting and maintaining that wrist position is easier from the "classical" banjo/guitar position.

 

Pete Seeger's extremely useful How To Play The 5 String Banjo has a good illustration with a banjo but any site on classical guitar should show you the 45 degree position of the neck that is so helpful to beginners and those looking to do more than the most basic fretting. Unfortunately man banjo methods are written assuming the player is already a guitar player and can easily reach the frets on that instrument, so there is little need to work on the problem from the point of view of the narrower necked Banjo.

All that said - when I want to play a D7 chord in G tuning I usually go with the x0210 form any time I don't need that F# in the bass.

A shortcut to chording the banjo in G tuning - the 1st string and 4th string are tuned to the same note (although an octave apart) therefore on any chord where the 1st string is played open, the 4th string can also be played open

Edited by - oldwoodchuckb on 08/08/2015 02:39:20

ShhhItsASecret - Posted - 08/08/2015:  04:20:06

What Woodchuck says about hand/wrist position is ultimately going your best solution.

Another potential short-term solution if you need that F# for melody, followed by a brush: sometimes I play a partial D7 x4530 (or x0530), achieving the notes F#-C-D-D (or D-C-D-D), depending on where my next melody notes are. Or just to change things up for funsies.

minstrelmike - Posted - 08/08/2015:  07:46:08

The regular D7 chords: 4210 and 0214 have the longest stretches of all.

I suggest folks with difficulties to at first avoid them (use 0230) in order to keep things moving at speed and then work on other chords farther up the neck to get the hand used to spanning frets. Move the left elbow around somewhat and you get a different angle on the frets.

It's a lot easier to make the G chord at fret 7-9 than it is to make the identical D chord at frets 2-4.

The F chord is the hardest 3213 and I knew I had my stretching done when i could finally make the full F#dim: 4214 but I worked on it way up the neck first.

jbickfor - Posted - 08/08/2015:  09:57:25

Yes, the issue is that it's at the root position and the span is big. I am in fact keeping my wrist out--I have my thumb on the back of the neck, very close to the floor side, and I'm holding the banjo so upright that the 5th string peg is practically in my ear. That's the only way I can make the stretch at all without accidentally damping some or most of the strings, and it's still an awkward stretch that is difficult to land consistently. I'm guessing I just need to work on it more!
The 3213 F chord is indeed also a challenge but that's not as bad as trying to play the 4th string F# while holding a D7.

jmcconnan - Posted - 08/08/2015:  10:01:51

my favorite D7 shape: 4534

SteveMurtha - Posted - 08/08/2015:  10:22:09

I also concur with  oldwoodchuckb about hand position. If you can adapt to this hand position it will serve you well. The other thing is that it is very possible to develop your stretch. Here's a recent thread from the BG side: banjohangout.org/topic/305714   with a number of suggestions. The book I cite in my comment, Aaron Shearer's Slur, Ornament and Reach Development Exercises, is a gold mine for left hand technique. Although written for Classical guitarists, the exercises are almost al readily adapted for banjo. If you can work through this book you will have a killer left hand. Bear in mind the exercises are written out in staff notation and it might take some work to figure them out on the banjo.

bluenote23 - Posted - 08/08/2015:  10:26:41

As a relatively new player (I've been playing for 2 1/2 years) I can tell you that yes, it is difficult to play. I think I could start getting the hang of it around 18 months in (and I played guitar for a long time before starting the banjo).

I play Scruggs style and not clawhammer but fretting techniques ought to be similar. I usually play with the neck resting in my palm and my thumb on the side (and not in the middle of the back) of the neck. I have read on this forum that this is not recommended. However, to get really long stretches like the D7 (and the Scruggs Em choke at the 11th fret) I find that putting a lot of down force with my fingers and 'pushing' the neck into the palm of my hand makes these positions a lot easier.

Good luck and keep at it!

SteveMurtha - Posted - 08/08/2015:  10:32:31

John B- I cross-posted with your most recent post, so I didn't see your comment about your hand position. Without seeing your hand I can only hazard a guess, but it sounds like your wrist might be TOO far out, or, more accurately, that the side of your hand is to far from the side of the neck. This has the effect of flattening the arch of the fingers, causing the damping you describe. Try bringing the side of your hand, that is to say the part of your palm behind the knuckles where the fingers start, closer and more parallel to the side of the neck, which should raise the arch of the fingers sufficiently to clear the adjacent strings.

jbickfor - Posted - 08/08/2015:  14:06:54

Thanks for all the tips, guys. I notice that when I'm not dealing with this particular issue, I do tend to let the neck rest between my thumb and first finger (though not on the palm). When I play a song with the F#/D7, that's when I hike the neck up to near vertical and lean in and practically wrap my forearm around to the front. I'll keep trying different hand/wrist positions to see if something clicks. But it's very comforting to hear that I'm not alone in having trouble with this! :-)

Edited by - jbickfor on 08/08/2015 14:07:35

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 08/09/2015:  04:15:01

I really suggest taking a lesson with a classical guitar teacher - and check the internet including sites local to you to find the best in your area. One or two lessons with a professional who knows exactly what he is teaching can go a long way toward making your fretting and playing better. He won't be able to do much for your actual clawing (unless he's like me and has studied both classical guitar and clawhammer banjo), but he will help you build an efficient and quick left hand - a skill you need for almost every musical instrument.

Bart Veerman - Posted - 08/09/2015:  06:31:19

I've tried those stretching exercises over the [30+] years and my pinky still just don't get it. If I need to play the D7 in the common shape 0210 and need the 4th fret on the 4th string after in the next chord I lift off the second string and play it as as single note - nothing wrong with playing a single note instead of feeling compelled to "complete" whatever picking pattern.

If I need to keep that C note then I usually play the D7 chord as 4534, 0570 or 0577 when I need to stay down the neck. There's a similar stretch in the double C tuning where you need the 2nd fret, third string and 5th fret 4th string that I had to "rework."

I do not see it as a problem,  handicap, not-doing-it-right, cheating or whatever to [re]working around it. Keep in mind that rendering the melody is job #1. No disrespect to classical guitar players but how you get that done, "what me worry."

Added: some people's hands/fingers are just not "wired" to work that way and I have no problem, or reservations, accepting that. Hey, I'm just a banjoey wanting to keep the whole thing fun to do.

Edited by - Bart Veerman on 08/09/2015 06:35:01

JoeDownes - Posted - 08/09/2015:  07:05:51

Try the chords with the capo on the 5th or 7th fret and see if you can make the stretch up there. Than take it down the neck step by step.

Lew H - Posted - 08/09/2015:  07:12:40

I always try to take the easy way out, and here's how for this problem.  Just fret the 3rd string, 2nd fret, and 4th string, 4th fret. Brush mostly on those two strings if you like. Even if you brush over the 1st and 2nd strings, it's still a quite pleasant chord--just not a standard D7.

jbickfor - Posted - 08/09/2015:  13:48:41

Great advice, guys! Thanks! I agree with both sides on this. Yes, it's important not to shy away from challenges in order to learn and grow. But it's ok to fudge a bit sometimes, too. I like JoeDownes idea of easing into it starting higher on the neck and working back. And I like the various tricks for getting around the problem in the meantime. I'll never be a professional musician, and probably won't ever even perform for anyone--I'm just doing this to amuse myself. All that really matters is that it continues to be fun, right?

Thanks again!

Edited by - jbickfor on 08/09/2015 13:49:18