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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Which Presto to buy?


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/265539

tomberghan - Posted - 06/23/2013:  21:50:10


I have a banjo that I want to put a Presto on - old style - non adjustable - or, adjustable is OK too I guess. 



Stewmac? Tyler Mountain? Elderly? Something else?  Please advise. 


Earls 5 - Posted - 06/23/2013:  21:53:36


The adjustable one's available these days are a little heavy but decent. Any genuine presto will work just fine.

jwoods - Posted - 06/23/2013:  22:37:49


I would suggest reading the customer reviews for the product you want to buy on the vendor sites you mentioned.



Edited by - jwoods on 06/23/2013 22:39:07

pastorharry - Posted - 06/24/2013:  00:12:57


My Recording King came with the non-adjustable Presto , thin, light..so so in my book. I replaced it with the heavier, stronger and adjustable one from Elderly, big improvement all the way around! elderly.com/accessories/items/P112.htm

jessie - Posted - 06/24/2013:  01:34:31


if you want a presto that will last, a  prucha presto is the best way to go .you can buy one from greg boyds house of fine musical instruments .


jbalch - Posted - 06/24/2013:  04:32:15


Tom:



I use Jaslov Prucha Presto tailpieces (old-style - non-adjustable) on almost all my banjos. I really like the sound of that tailpiece on my open-back and bluegrass instruments.  As was suggested, I buy them from Greg Boyd.



I've also used several of the original pre-war Grover Patent Presto parts (accurately punched by Jerry Keys).  Some folks argue that the Prucha might be a little heavier brass than the originals. I'm not sure about that.  But for my purposes, I can't tell any meaningful difference in performance between a current production Prucha and the old Grovers.



gregboyd.com/accessory_detail....y_key=929



I have also used the Gold-Star (Saga) Presto which (I found to be flimsy) and the Recording King part.  The RK Presto is lighter gauge brass than the Prucha - but not quite as flimsy as some of the other imports. I've read on the BHO that some folks prefer the RK Presto for that reason. It is a good value for sure.



The first photo below is a pre-war Grover Patent Presto that I used for years on my 1996 Reiter Galax-plus (now replaced with a new Prucha part).  The second photo is my 2012 Bacophone-plus with a Prucha Presto.



 



Edited by - jbalch on 06/24/2013 04:41:02




tomberghan - Posted - 06/24/2013:  06:18:38


Thanks Everyone and Thanks John!  I met Greg at the Wintergrass festival in Seattle this past winter. 


buckholler - Posted - 06/24/2013:  08:03:12


I also have a Prucha Presto tail piece and its well built.

lethegoodtimesroll - Posted - 06/24/2013:  10:00:18


Thanks for the info on Presto Reproductions.. Which reproduction is closest to an original Presto?

Kurt Kemp - Posted - 06/24/2013:  10:07:53


prucha


grm405 - Posted - 06/24/2013:  10:11:44


I have both Saga and Prucha Prestos.  I just measured them.  The Saga weighs 49.62g without the mounting bolt, the Prucha 51.31g, about 1.7g difference.  The metal thickness is difficult to measure with a caliper, but on the mount is .058" on both.  Other locations vary, probably due to the drawing of the metal when stamped.  At some locations they are the same, at others the Saga measures slightly (.001-.002") thinner.



The polish and finishing on the Prucha is noticeably better and the edges less sharp.  The front end tabs are shaped better also, with more curvature, which makes them stiffer.  It also has 5 string notches to the Saga's traditional 4.



So the Prucha is better made.  However I am not sure if there is any difference in sound or function.  And the price really favors the Saga, by a huge amount.  And unless I look very carefully, I cannot tell them apart on the banjo.



Gerry


jbalch - Posted - 06/24/2013:  14:47:38


Saga may have improved their Presto - I don't know.  The one I saw was on a 2004 Gold Star.



Others around here have more current experience I'm sure.



 



 


tomberghan - Posted - 06/24/2013:  14:58:11


Just curious - the one Elderly sells simply says "imported," and there are no reviews. It is likely from China and regardless, the quality may be fine, but can anyone give a report? Earlier we did have one post stating that it was all around better than the RK. 


jbalch - Posted - 06/24/2013:  16:00:49


I don't know Tom:



The one on Elderly looks pretty lightweight to me - and a little rough around the edges.





 



The Prucha is a nice part for sure:









Edited by - jbalch on 06/24/2013 16:07:02

jbalch - Posted - 06/24/2013:  16:04:40


What about the one from Stew-Mac?




avarko - Posted - 06/24/2013:  16:15:22


Everything Jaroslav Prucha makes is Super High Quality, from banjos to hooks-and-nuts. He's an Old World craftsman in the finest sense of the word. His tone rings are awesome, rims amazing and fit and finish on his instruments is unbeatable. IMHO, based on having owned five of his banjos and currently using his pot assemblies in my own, humble banjo-building efforts, he's the best.

I would extend the superlatives to include Greg Boyd, Pruchas' US distributor. Greg really knows about banjos AND how to take care of customers. I've never lost a dime during any of the trade-ups that we've made over the years. Good guy! I highly recommend his shop and will never go anywhere else.

tomberghan - Posted - 06/24/2013:  16:51:52


The Prucha looks the nicest in the photos.  The one from Elderly suffers from a bad chrome plating.  Too bad.  The stamping and pressing of the part may be just fine but rendered ugly by a poor plating process.



The one from Stewmac looks great in the photo, but half of the reviewers didn't like it all . . . which is weird because the other half loved it and talked about what a high quality part it was.  (The photos on restaurant menus always look great too . . . and we all know how that usually works out)



There is another Presto from Tyler Mountain, a company in Florida, and Amazon sells it for a bargain price . . . but it has no reviews.  So . . . it is a crap shoot and I don't really like to gamble . . . so even though the Prucha is ten bucks more that the others, I know the quality will be solid.



Prucha wins.



And besides, Jaroslav Prucha sounds like a pretty cool guy and I like to support someone like that!  yes


buckholler - Posted - 06/24/2013:  18:16:00


I have one of those Tyler Mountain ones on another banjo. Its like the one from Elderly. Your extra $10 will be worth it for the Prucha.



Edited by - buckholler on 06/24/2013 18:25:48

jbalch - Posted - 06/24/2013:  19:28:41


quote:

Originally posted by tomberghan

 

...




The one from Stewmac looks great in the photo, but half of the reviewers didn't like it all . . . which is weird because the other half loved it and talked about what a high quality part it was.  ...







Tom:



At least half of folks think the Presto is a lousy tailpiece to begin with.  We all hear things differently I guess



An original Oettinger is the BEST tailpiece (IMHO). But I'm not lucky enough to have come across an old 5-string copy yet.



After that - The Prucha Presto gets my vote.



Let us know what you determine....


pastorharry - Posted - 06/24/2013:  22:56:26


John, for some reason I was under the impression that you liked the heavier, adjustable Presto....which was originally why I bought one. I thought the one that came stock on my RK was flimsy, so I changed it out...the simple fact that you can adjust it is great for setup, but it is also very well made.



side


tomberghan - Posted - 06/24/2013:  23:19:13


And the plot thickens!  I contacted the American Made Banjo Company and they have (sell) a made "In America" Presto (just as their name says). 



Have any of you tried one? Or seen one on one of their banjos?  (Kel Kroydon, Heartland, Robin Smith, and others listed on their site). I love their strings and the "pre EPA style" Frosted Remo Heads.  I hear their banjos are excellent too. 



Man! So MANY fine banjos being built in the world today. We are in a second (or is it third?) golden age of banjo lutherie to be sure. 


tomberghan - Posted - 06/24/2013:  23:25:14


Pastor Harry, that's a nice looking  Presto!  What brand is that?  I'm guessing maybe a Fults? But I've never seen one in person. 


pastorharry - Posted - 06/25/2013:  00:37:26


Tom, not sure of the maker, Elderly sells them and simply calls them the new style presto tailpiece...no mention of it's origin   elderly.com/accessories/items/P112.htm  



Edited by - pastorharry on 06/25/2013 00:38:50

silvioferretti - Posted - 06/25/2013:  01:24:25


The adjustable Presto is made by Saga, and it's the one that was standard on the original Gold Stars (made in Japan) until about the mid-'80s, when they started making a more accurate reproduction of the prewar Prestos. I had an adjustable Presto on the first Crowe model that I got, and having fought with the one on my 1980 GF-100W I decided to replace it with the newer / older version. To my ear the non-adjustable Presto sounds a whole lot better than the adjustable one, but then again, I never liked adjustable tailpieces (except the original clamshells or their Prucha reproduction).


jbalch - Posted - 06/25/2013:  04:50:12


Harry:  I have not used on of those adjustable Presto tailpieces. My memories are of the older imported adjustable types -  some of which were steel - and did not sound as good as the brass Presto. The one in your photo looks well-made.  How does it sound?



Tom: The American Made Banjo Co. tailpiece (that I found on the site). is a very interesting hybrid. It is essentially like the earlier Grover "window" design (with sliding cover).  But the front end of the string guide is shaped like a Presto. Looks expensive to make.  Did you see a price?   americanmadebanjo.com/banjo_hardware.php



The old original Grover "window" tailpieces sound  great.  They are most found on lower-grade Gibson-made tenors from the 1920s. But the original design accommodates up to eight strings, so you might see them on other instruments too. The only problems with these are that the string attachment is connected by two brass tabs that bend through holes in the main tailpiece part.  Those tabs break easily and the string attachment is lost. Also ,since the sliding cover is completely removable, it is often (usually) missing.



I attached photos of an original Grover "window".



 



 



Edited by - jbalch on 06/25/2013 04:58:06







   

firemx220 - Posted - 06/25/2013:  10:37:48


I use the Prucha presto on my banjo and really like it

mikehalloran - Posted - 06/25/2013:  11:13:49


quote:

Originally posted by lethegoodtimesroll

 

Thanks for the info on Presto Reproductions.. Which reproduction is closest to an original Presto?







Easy. It is the lightweight Chinese one sold by RK, Saga, Elderly, Stew-Mac, Me and many others. It's the exact same tailpiece. It is also the closest in weight, durability and sound to the originals. In fact, the bodies and covers are interchangeable with originals (trained eyes do know the difference so counterfeiting should be impossible). 



The Prucha is heavier and I won't argue if you say better designed and better built. But heavier, better designed and better built are three ways that it differs from the originals. Although possibly the second  nicest version of the original design, it is not an accurate repro.



The adjustable Presto is a lot heavier and is the one originally used on the Gold Star banjos. Again, doesn't matter the brand, they're all the same. Better? Yes or no. The same? Absolutely not.



The Fults looks like a Presto and the similarity ends there.



The nicest version of the 5 string Presto, IMO, was the true 5 string Grover used by Vega from the late 1950s through the 1960s. It was the Presto with a solid bar and no hole. Like the originals, these tend to break if adjusted too low and Vega replaced them with the Waverly, first on the lower models, then all the way around and as replacements. Martin Vegas all used the Waverly or the Japanese replacements (Waverly was out of business around 1968).



Grover 5 string:





Waverly





 



Edited by - mikehalloran on 06/25/2013 11:26:18

tomberghan - Posted - 06/25/2013:  11:51:33


quote:


Originally posted by jbalch

Tom: The American Made Banjo Co. tailpiece (that I found on the site). is a very interesting hybrid. It is essentially like the earlier Grover "window" design (with sliding cover).  But the front end of the string guide is shaped like a Presto. Looks expensive to make.  Did you see a price?   americanmadebanjo.com/banjo_hardware.php




The old original Grover "window" tailpieces sound  great.  They are most found on lower-grade Gibson-made tenors from the 1920s. But the original design accommodates up to eight strings, so you might see them on other instruments too. The only problems with these are that the string attachment is connected by two brass tabs that bend through holes in the main tailpiece part.  Those tabs break easily and the string attachment is lost. Also ,since the sliding cover is completely removable, it is often (usually) missing. 



 






 



Thanks for the photos and info John!  The American Made Banjo company charges $19.95 plus shipping which is a great price compared to all others.  As they explained to me, they do not make exact reproductions with the name "Presto" stamped in the part because they honor the U.S. Patent and the "respect the intellectual property rights of other instrument and parts builder in the United States."  And I respect them for that!  As they say, their instruments and parts are "Made in America" so inside the U.S. they must be compliant with all patent laws. (I think that is how it works . . . I am certainly no patent attorney)



Here is a link for the original patent of Albert D. Grover for his Presto tailpiece, filed in 1923 and issued in 1925.  (Very interesting!)



google.com/patents/US1566745?p...p;f=false



Now . . . I never said what banjo this is intended for . . . and, it is for my little 4 string soprano banjo (melody banjo if you prefer).  The tail piece on it (the original) has a lot of downward pressure by design, even when fully relaxed.  I want less downward pressure.  Four string banjos and Presto style tailpieces have a long association with each other, largely due to Gibson of course, and I personally like the Presto style.  My little banjo also needs a new head (long story) and I want to change the bridge as well . . . so. a big makeover for my soprano banjo is coming up!  Here is a photo, and here is a sound file recorded just this month: Bill Monroe's "Jerusalem Ridge."



 



 




My Soprano Banjo


Jerusalem Ridge

jbalch - Posted - 06/25/2013:  12:00:14


That is a great sounding little melody banjo.



I bet the American made Banjo Co. TP is a good one.  Just keep the sliding cover in the case.  $19.95 is hard to beat.



Notice from the drawing that the Presto is a "straight pull" design for 4-string. banjo.





Edited by - jbalch on 06/25/2013 12:06:18

mikehalloran - Posted - 06/25/2013:  13:08:55


> (Very interesting!)<



Why? This is why the first few years were marked Patent Pending. The Patent process is time consuming.


tomberghan - Posted - 06/25/2013:  13:16:56


Thanks John!



>>>Just keep the sliding cover in the case.<<<



Well, I'm pretty good about taking care of my musical instruments, some of which are very fragile (you are familiar with my collection).  I don't lose parts!



I like having a cover because for the melody banjo I use steel strings for 1 & 2, but I use stranded nylon core wound with nickel silver plated copper wire, which do not have ball ends nor loop ends, so, I have to use a special little tie like on a classical guitar.  So, having a cover is nice to hide all of that 'tie work.'  I still have not made my mind up completely . . . but it is down to either the American Made Banjo Company's "modified Presto style," or one of Mr. Prucha's Grover Presto replicas.  Either will be just fine I am sure!


tomberghan - Posted - 06/25/2013:  13:19:57


quote:

Originally posted by mikehalloran

 

> (Very interesting!)<




Why? This is why the first few years were marked Patent Pending. The Patent process is time consuming.







Hi Mike, I simply meant it was interesting (for me) to read through Mr. Albert Grover's application.  Nothing to do with how long patents take to be issued.  Best Wishes, Tom


mikehalloran - Posted - 06/25/2013:  15:05:54


I get it. Yes, very interesting indeed!


jbalch - Posted - 06/25/2013:  16:11:01


Hey Mike:



Were these marked "Grover"



Did they have five (5) dimples (string guides) at the bend?  Or four (4) like the old ones (see attached).



Just curious ... I've not had one of them before.





 



Edited by - jbalch on 06/25/2013 16:12:19



   

mikehalloran - Posted - 06/25/2013:  17:07:48


>



Hey Mike:



Were these marked "Grover"



Did they have five (5) dimples (string guides) at the bend?<



 



These were always unmarked. Though supposedly made by Grover, I have often wondered if Waverly might not have been the actual manufacturer. When Stew-Mac bought Waverly, there was tooling for a number of products sold under both names. As popular as the Presto is, has anyone ever noticed that you cannot buy one from Grover Products? 



I never saw any American banjo other than Vega with this tailpiece but have seen it on English and German banjos now and then.



Yes, it has 5 string guides as it should. Here is my spare:



 





 



Edited by - mikehalloran on 06/25/2013 17:09:17

pastorharry - Posted - 06/26/2013:  02:29:24


"Harry:  I have not used on of those adjustable Presto tailpieces. My memories are of the older imported adjustable types -  some of which were steel - and did not sound as good as the brass Presto. The one in your photo looks well-made.  How does it sound?"



To answer John's question, on my particular banjo,(no tone ring, wood bevel rim), the new style presto of a heavier build and adjustable thumbscrew design, thickened the sound, and gave it a stronger, deeper tone.Volume seems about the same, but less harsh, the notes are more separate and distinct, possibly a bit quicker decay. I have the tailpiece set about middle, some downward pull, but not overly extreme. The banjo is an RK-R25 and the comparison is with the OEM stock Presto. This is the one I'm using now.   elderly.com/accessories/items/P112.htm 


tomberghan - Posted - 06/26/2013:  05:54:45


Pastor Harry, from your description, your probably have a pretty nice Presto style tailpiece! If you are up for an experiment, try lowering the tailpiece (tightening). This should raise the pitch a bit, so tune the strings back to pitch. Observe what effect this had. Then, do the opposite - raise the tailpiece all the way (fully relaxed). This will lower the pitch, so again tune the strings back to the correct pitch. 



Then, after you have tried both positions, report back to us on the effect. Just proceed slowly and checking the pitch as you go - you won't hurt your tailpiece or head. When listening for the effect, compare the sustain as well as the timbre (how long the strings ring after being plucked).  Thank you sir!



Best Wishes, Tom


prewartb3 - Posted - 06/26/2013:  08:11:45


The best tailpiece ever "The Faults 1934" Prewar Presto designed by Peter Schwimmer, Silvio Ferretti and Charlie Cushman. Made in the good ole USA


jbalch - Posted - 06/26/2013:  13:39:22


quote:

Originally posted by tomberghan

 

Pastor Harry, from your description, your probably have a pretty nice Presto style tailpiece! If you are up for an experiment, try lowering the tailpiece (tightening). This should raise the pitch a bit, so tune the strings back to pitch. Observe what effect this had. Then, do the opposite - raise the tailpiece all the way (fully relaxed). This will lower the pitch, so again tune the strings back to the correct pitch. 




Then, after you have tried both positions, report back to us on the effect. Just proceed slowly and checking the pitch as you go - you won't hurt your tailpiece or head. When listening for the effect, compare the sustain as well as the timbre (how long the strings ring after being plucked).  Thank you sir!




Best Wishes, Tom


 




I think you may find that this adjustment affects the string height too (playing action).  A significant change down force from the tailpiece can cause the head to deflect under the bridge more (or less). This is especially true with natural hide heads ..  but also may be noticeable even with mylar.



I've noticed subtle changes in action when adjusting individual strings on my Oettinger (for tenor banjo).



 



 


The Pope - Posted - 06/26/2013:  15:18:00


I'm sure prewartb3 means "The Fults 1934" Prewar Presto tailpiece...."


pastorharry - Posted - 06/26/2013:  15:50:33


Through no Fult of his own....

jbalch - Posted - 06/26/2013:  18:15:33


Oh Harry ... You're Fult of old-fashioned, home-made bologna. wink



or as we used to say in Alabama ... "baloney"





 



Edited by - jbalch on 06/26/2013 18:21:46

pastorharry - Posted - 06/28/2013:  18:01:02


internet was down 2 days....I see I was really missing it!!clown



went to a jam last night 2 guitars, dobro, 3! madnolins, and I had to stuff a piece of foam rubber between the bridge and tailpiece my lowly RK-R25 was sooo loud. Or as John Balch says, "just a pinch between the cheek and gum" shock


aeroweenie - Posted - 06/28/2013:  18:25:31


Tom, I have a StewMac raw brass Presto you can try if you're just curious whether or not you'd like the tone with a Presto.  If you like the sound, I image you'll want to buy a plated one, no worries.


jbalch - Posted - 06/28/2013:  18:36:15


Tom:



I forgot about this until I re-read this thread,



 



A few months ago I set up a banjo mandolin that had been given to Jack Pearson.  He wanted to use it as a melody banjo - with four strings not eight.  We didn't modify the headstock or tuners ... I just set up the nut, bridge and tailpiece.



I used a RK presto and it sounded great.



Edited by - jbalch on 06/28/2013 18:37:46



   

tomberghan - Posted - 06/28/2013:  18:57:21


John, this EXACTLY what I want to try. MAN alive I bet Jack sounds amazing on that thing!!  For those of you are unfamiliar with Jack - well - he is the best picker in the world is all I can say!  Just flat out extraordinary!  (A well known session player and soloist in Nashville) I would like Jack to try my strings!



What make is his banjo?


jbalch - Posted - 06/28/2013:  19:57:06


Tom:



We figured it was made by Oscar Schmidt.  It is not a great instrument.  A friend of Jack's picked it up at a bluegrass festival and brought it to him as a gift. It really needs a neck re-set.  But that kind of work is above my pay grade. I just set it up to the best of my ability and it turned out pretty good. More photos below.



Edited by - jbalch on 06/28/2013 19:59:23









tone ring splice


tacks in rim


neck brace part


dowell cut


neck brace fit


schwimbo - Posted - 07/01/2013:  02:08:29


prewartb3 said: The best tailpiece ever "The Faults 1934" Prewar Presto designed by Peter Schwimmer, Silvio Ferretti and Charlie Cushman. Made in the good ole USA

Aside from the chuckles that followed about the added letter "a" in the tailpiece name, I should point out that Bob Fults designed the tailpiece, though I did give him some input about which modifications he made sounded better to me. I don't know if that really qualifies as being a "designer". I think maybe consultant would be more correct. Silvio may have also given some input to Bob, and maybe Charlie too, but the tailpiece is really Bob's design (and it is hard to find Fault with the tailpiece, though the Pro-5 is my favorite, and incidentally has the solid front end like the Presto made by Grover mentioned earlier in the thread).

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