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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/247388
DroneAlone - Posted - 10/18/2012: 10:45:11
Dear Members,
a couple of months ago, I've commissioned a custom banjo, and now it's time to decide whether it's gonna be a 11" or a 12"...
Judging from the recordings here, on Zepp's site and on youtube, I have a slight preference for 12", but I like 11", too. And if I get a 12" now, I'll probably get a 11" in one or two years - or the other way round.
At the moment, I only play clawhammer (some bum-ditty, some drop thumb), but once I have the basics down, I will certainly try other old-time styles, like 2-finger, 3-finger, minstrel, etc...
So the question is, which is the better all around OT banjo? Or does one of them have any limitations regarding playing styles?
I currently play a very simple (but fun) solid top banjo (made from a backyard music kit) so I probably can't draw any conclusions from that. And I don't know any stores or players around where I live (Bonn, Germany), where I could try different banjos and see for myself.
Thank you for your input!
Pete
Tatersoup - Posted - 10/18/2012: 11:17:20
I think the 11" is more all around but man those 12" sure sound good.
Here's a great place to hear different banjos and you might be able to glean enough to help your decision. Good luck!
folkofthewood.com/page2519.htm#saga
Franz - Posted - 10/18/2012: 11:21:08
Versuch's mal hier:
(er sitzt in Düsseldorf, ich weiss allerdings nicht, ob man seine Sammlung besichtigen kann...)
Gruss,
Franz
Edited by - Franz on 10/18/2012 11:23:26
trapdoor2 - Posted - 10/18/2012: 11:21:41
It is very much a personal preference thing. I'm not completely sure I could tell the difference blindfolded.
I initially targeted 12" banjos because it seemed like the tone tended to be somewhat darker than that of the smaller diameters. The thing is, you can do a lot to alter the sound of any banjo, darker or brighter, etc. So...now I have five sizes I play regularly, 16", 13", 12", 11" and 10-1/8". Each has a different voice and I like them all.
From a personal comfort standpoint, I'm a big guy...and 12" seems to fall perfectly under my arm. The smaller sizes tend to wander about a good bit. My little A-scale (10-1/8" pot dia) is always moving around for some reason and I catch myself shifting it around more when I play.
I don't think any one of them is more versatile than another based on pot size (well, perhaps excepting the big 16" pot). To me, versatility is more about stability while moving from one tuning to another or capoing from one key to another. That kind of versatility is more tied to the banjo's neck, scale and setup than anything else.
Edited by - trapdoor2 on 10/18/2012 11:22:57
Montanarick - Posted - 10/18/2012: 11:26:42
It's weird how personal all of these banjo decisions are. I'm also a big guy.....6'1", 225lbs.....so I naturally assumed I wanted a 12 for size and sound. After owning a Bob Carlin 350 and Enoch Tradesman (both 12's)....I now own and really like the Vega Little Wonder and a Goodtime (both 11's)....just more comfortable for me and to my ear I don't think I have sacrificed in the sound department. Rick
erikforgod - Posted - 10/18/2012: 11:29:27
My newest banjo will have a 12" rim... ( Just because I dont have one with a 12" size yet ) but it seems to be the general consensus that 12" rims produce a tubbier "fatter" sound while an 11" produces a more "focused" sound with a bit more projection....someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong but this seems to be the general consensus.
blockader - Posted - 10/18/2012: 11:29:58
Trapdoor pretty much covered it. Sound can be altered a good bit with set up changes. Some folks like the feel of 12" others find the extra size uncomfortable. I like 12" rims myself.
Montanarick - Posted - 10/18/2012: 11:40:12
quote: To blockader's point I should have added that I installed a renaissance head on my Vega,a heavy moon bridge and Ernie Ball Earthwood Frailing strings. That coupled with no tone ring gives me the "plunky" sound I like. Before these changes the sound was definitely brighter.
Originally posted by blockader
Trapdoor pretty much covered it. Sound can be altered a good bit with set up changes. Some folks like the feel of 12" others find the extra size uncomfortable. I like 12" rims myself.
steve j. - Posted - 10/18/2012: 12:45:42
quote:
Originally posted by Dexter
It's weird how personal all of these banjo decisions are. I'm also a big guy.....6'1", 225lbs.....so I naturally assumed I wanted a 12 for size and sound. After owning a Bob Carlin 350 and Enoch Tradesman (both 12's)....I now own and really like the Vega Little Wonder and a Goodtime (both 11's)....just more comfortable for me and to my ear I don't think I have sacrificed in the sound department. Rick
yep, I had a bc 120 for a while,, loved the neck but not the pot, wish I could get that neck on a 11
Snowbird - Posted - 10/18/2012: 12:59:28
There is another factor which you might want to consider here and this could be important if you are relatively new to playing banjo. The largest body of knowledge for setup and tweaking is centered around 11 inch heads. There are guidelines for head tension, reviews and recommendations for bridges, tailpieces and strings. Some of these guidelines and research might not apply to the bigger head and you might find yourself on your own a bit in some of these areas. I think there is maybe more of a comfort zone around the 11 inch heads.
Joe the banjo guy - Posted - 10/18/2012: 13:41:27
I have a 12 inch Ramsey student that is a little too tubby, but stuff it with a sock and it sounds great. I'm thinking i'd get an 11inch if i had to do it over again.
jbalch - Posted - 10/18/2012: 14:02:40
11" rims can be more focused. They often have strong bass ... and clear trebles. They are plenty loud. I like 11" rims for recording and performing through a sound system. They can really stand-up in a string band mix. My favorite every-day players are 11"
12" rims can sound bigger and more open. A good 12" rim banjo can be very powerful. They are sometimes capable of a more tubby sound (if desired). Those factors are often modified by stuffing the back to dampen the sound a bit. I like 12" rim banjos for solo or duet playing (ie: with a fiddle or mandolin).
Banjos come in a huge variety and each can have its ideal purpose. Perhaps that is the reason that I long ago gave up the notion of finding the perfect single instrument. I enjoy them all.
erikforgod - Posted - 10/18/2012: 14:54:38
What could be the "uncomfort" factor that a 12" rim would give? The rim is only a half inch bigger all the way around...is it a weight thing? Is it uncomfortable to play resting on your leg?
banjo bill-e - Posted - 10/18/2012: 15:10:52
A 12" rim tucks up under my right armpit and helps secure that pot a bit better than an 11", for me anyway, and the way that I hold a banjo. My 11" Ramsey Electric seemed to be louder than my 12" Ramsey Woody, but it's hard to really know. And of course, what the player hears is not what others in the room would hear. I would not let pot size be a determining factor if searching for a banjo, but if having one custom built, wow, I don't know. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. What a wonderful decision to have to make!
Montanarick - Posted - 10/18/2012: 15:16:33
quote: Again Eric this is such an individual thing but for me it is not that the 12 was uncomfortable.....it is that the 11 is more comfortable. It just feels more balanced and natural to hold and play. Remember, I've had two 12's and ended up liking the 11 better. Lot of people swear by the 12" like Bob Carlin who first talked me into buying the 350. The 350 and the Tradesman were both great banjos.
Originally posted by erikforgod
What could be the "uncomfort" factor that a 12" rim would give? The rim is only a half inch bigger all the way around...is it a weight thing? Is it uncomfortable to play resting on your leg?
Edited by - Montanarick on 10/18/2012 15:21:26
hstrawn - Posted - 10/18/2012: 15:17:12
If you want to really appreciate the 11" banjo, get a 12" first. ;-)
Montanarick - Posted - 10/18/2012: 15:19:41
quote: That's funny hstrawn....because that's what I did........
Originally posted by hstrawn
If you want to really appreciate the 11" banjo, get a 12" first. ;-)
rendesvous1840 - Posted - 10/18/2012: 18:20:27
I don't think there is a "better one for all around." I went back and forth between an 11" & a 12", until I was thoroughly convinced I wanted (needed?) both. They both sounded wonderful, though they sounded very different. I am sure I could have been happy with either, but I could see I wanted both. For different styles or situations or my own moods, etc. How you play will have an effect as well, maybe more than pot size. I didn't buy both, the $ wasn't available. Still isn't, may not ever be. Learn to make what you end up with do what you want. I almost never play over the neck, but once in a while I move closer to the bridge. But there are more differences than pot size between the two I was deciding between. Since you can't try a lot of banjos, you are a bit at a disadvantage. Perhaps a maker can play some over the phone for you? One of the BHO members has a bunch of videos demonstrating various banjos playing the same song, by the same player. Durned if I can remember who it was, though. Anybody got better memory than me?
Paul
conohawk - Posted - 10/18/2012: 20:48:40
After five years, I ultimately never got comfortable with the size of my 12" banjo. I've just sold it to help defray the cost of an Enoch Dobson 11" (and a new mandolin for the missus). Until the new banjo arrives, I'm playing my old 11" Deering Goodtime. I rarely played it until now. The size of the pot really seems to make a difference in comfort. For the record, I'm an average size guy: just shy of six feet, and 180 lbs.
What's more, I feel that the greater comfort of the smaller pot (in my case anyway) is allowing me to accelerate my skill level. I'd never considered what that awkwardness was doing to my technique.
R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 10/18/2012: 22:47:49
quote:
Originally posted by jbalch
11" rims can be more focused. They often have strong bass ... and clear trebles. They are plenty loud. I like 11" rims for recording and performing through a sound system. They can really stand-up in a string band mix. My favorite every-day players are 11"
12" rims can sound bigger and more open. A good 12" rim banjo can be very powerful. They are sometimes capable of a more tubby sound (if desired). Those factors are often modified by stuffing the back to dampen the sound a bit. I like 12" rim banjos for solo or duet playing (ie: with a fiddle or mandolin).
Banjos come in a huge variety and each can have its ideal purpose. Perhaps that is the reason that I long ago gave up the notion of finding the perfect single instrument. I enjoy them all.
What John said.
I'm on the big side, and I find an 11" A-Scale the most comfortable. I think the comment about the sound being more focused is accurate, and set up for it, an 11" can be very tubby if that is your preference.
That said, banjos can be set up so many ways.
My Bowlin 1865 is a 12" dia. x 3" deep w/ 24" scale and it is very comfortable.
DroneAlone - Posted - 10/18/2012: 23:19:51
Thank you for your comments!
Seems that I can't do much wrong one way or the other... just wanted to make sure that the choice for one pot size doesn't limit my development.
For example, On the Ukulele, I do a lot of 3-finger picking. Due to the reentrant tuning, the picking patterns seem to be easy to adapt to the banjo. But I don't do much picking on my backyard kit banjo, because I don't like the sound, while the clawhammer sound is really nice. So it's not the right banjo for playing 3-finger style (at least not for me).
What about nylon strings? Do they work equally well on 11" and 12"?
Thanks.
Pete
BobCu - Posted - 10/19/2012: 04:41:14
As always, as many opinions as posters. LOL. For my 2c, I have a 12" with a 24 3/4 scale. I'm only 5' 10", but find the banjo comfortable in my lap and easy to play. I think the key there is the shorter "A" size scale. The only thing I think I would like to do now that I have played it for over a year is maybe change from a Ren to a Frosted head. I think that would bring the sound to where I would like it. Good luck with your choice.
hweinberg - Posted - 10/19/2012: 05:03:30
In my job I get a lot of opinions from experts. I have concluded when experts disagree, then nobody knows the answer. I think that it's true about 11" vs 12". There is no right answer, and in this case it doesn't make much difference. As everyone has has said, head size is only one variable affecting sound and playability. Buy a brand that it is in demand and you can sell it and replace it with the other size if you want to. Stop wasting time deciding and just play the banjo! 8-) -- Howard
Slick Salmon - Posted - 10/19/2012: 05:29:07
When you're having a custom banjo made, selection of head size is an important issue. In my opinion, if you're going for versatility, then 11" is the safest choice. You can get an 11" to sound like almost anything.
steve j. - Posted - 10/19/2012: 06:49:26
quote:
Originally posted by erikforgod
What could be the "uncomfort" factor that a 12" rim would give? The rim is only a half inch bigger all the way around...is it a weight thing? Is it uncomfortable to play resting on your leg?
that is exactly what I thought before the bc 120, I think it may be the same as guitar players with 1 11/16 nuts and 1 3/4 how could 1/16 make a dirfference? I say it does,,, and can ,,,, others say no. you will never convince the other otherwise.
it does feel a bit heavier,,,, two of my tackheads are 12,,, but there are no brackets to add to the "apparent" size. I have 2,,, 11" open backs right now and one of them feels bigger,,,, doesnt measure different , but still feel is there. ears and feel are what some of us operate on,,,, some are more clinical
Edited by - steve j. on 10/19/2012 06:51:06
trapdoor2 - Posted - 10/19/2012: 07:55:01
quote:
Originally posted by DroneAlone
What about nylon strings? Do they work equally well on 11" and 12"?
No difference that I can tell. I have 11", 12", 13" and 16" nylon strung banjos and I don't think the difference has much at all to do with the pot diameter. Each can be set up to provide a fine playing banjo.
I have decided (after nearly 20 yrs of playing nylon strung open-back banjos) that the Clifford Essex banjos appeal more to me for fingerstyle. Although they follow the 11" pot dia., they are deeper (slightly over 3") than most American banjos of similar vintage (mine is from 1934) and somewhat heavier (over 7 lbs). I was told that the CE banjos were "optimal" for fingerstyle about 10 yrs ago but I didn't really believe it then.
I do now!
blockader - Posted - 10/19/2012: 08:03:30
quote:
Originally posted by DroneAlone
What about nylon strings? Do they work equally well on 11" and 12"?
Thanks.
Pete
yes, that is one of those setup differences everyone has mentioned. string type is just another personal preference, some like nylon, others (including me) do not. a lot of these personal preferences will come together for you as you play and experiment and grow as a banjo player. as you decide what exactly you want out of your banjo and your playing. most of the set up preferences are cheap and easy so its no big deal to try things out. you mentioned this was a custom banjo so you might tell the builder you want to be able to use both steel and nylon strings so he/she can give you a bridge/nut for each. who is the builder?
justin
ELWOOD - Posted - 10/19/2012: 08:12:53
Hi, All. I have two favorite Banjos as to size. The Buckbee is a 10 5/8ths nylgut strings thin rim very old. skin head and tiny tail piece
The other is a wood rim 12 inch ( Ramsey) moon bridged renni headed Woody. A no knot tail and wire strings.
Edited by - ELWOOD on 10/19/2012 08:13:49
ZEPP - Posted - 10/19/2012: 08:28:17
Fifty or so years ago, I was highly sensitive to tiny changes in instruments, to the extent that playing a banjo or guitar other than my own could be a real challenge.
Fast forward to my owning a music store. I have found that to sell instruments over the years, I have had to play thousands of very different instruments, and simply have to play whatever is put in my hands. I.e., I no longer notice small differences and am pretty comfortable across a broad spectrum.
That said, I think the difference between an 11- or a 12-inch pot is substantial...but of no consequence to me. I own each personally, and frankly don't notice any differences in playability. Each of my banjos has a distinctive sound (no reason to own two that sound alike), but, frankly, I'd have to think about which are 11s, which are 12s, and which are something else. I just play the bloody things.
So between 11- and 12-inch, which is the "better all around banjo?" The one that feels and sounds best to you.
Cheers,
ZEPP
ZEPP - Posted - 10/19/2012: 08:40:53
Not that I'm old or anything, but 50 years ago I had already been playing guitar four years (and banjo just one, but I was hot into it, playing every second I could!). (And I did read your post before your edit Steve! )
Cheers,
ZEPP
Edited by - ZEPP on 10/19/2012 08:45:47
erikforgod - Posted - 10/19/2012: 12:13:41
I was correct when I said a 12" inch rim is just actually a "half-inch" wider all the way around than an 11" rim right? I am not exactly a math wizz LOL!!
If that be the case it doesnt seem like there would be much difference...barely noticable
blockader - Posted - 10/19/2012: 13:37:23
"I was correct when I said a 12" inch rim is just actually a "half-inch" wider all the way around than an 11" rim right? I am not exactly a math wizz LOL!!
If that be the case it doesnt seem like there would be much difference...barely noticable"
yes, it is 1/2" bigger all around. BUT when you set it on your leg/lap it is projecting a full inch more into your arm pit space or chest, since you are not measuring from the middle but rather from one edge at that point. whether that inch is barely noticeable will depend on the person. i don't notice a major difference and prefer the extra BOOM of the 12" but i imagine for a smaller statured person the extra inch might make for a tight fit or too much reach.
-justin
Edited by - blockader on 10/19/2012 13:42:17
Mtngoat - Posted - 10/19/2012: 15:29:28
I follow a combination of the ELWOOD and ZEPP philosophies put forth in their adjacent posts above. I have a modern 12 inch strung with steel and an old no-name 10 5/8 inch mail order banjo from the turn of the last century strung with nylon about 2 steps low. I play the 12 in public to keep my band mates happy and the no-name at home to keep my wife happy. There is a difference in the mechanics and sound based on the particular strings and setups I'm using, but I don't really notice the difference in size.
grumpsie - Posted - 10/20/2012: 01:41:11
My feeling is that if you think you have all the banjos you want/need, you probably aren't thinking hard enough.
rudy - Posted - 10/20/2012: 07:37:08
quote:
Originally posted by erikforgod
What could be the "uncomfort" factor that a 12" rim would give? The rim is only a half inch bigger all the way around...is it a weight thing? Is it uncomfortable to play resting on your leg?
That "only a half inch" actually adds up to an almost 20% difference in actual surface area (size) between an 11" and 12" pot. That's definitely perceptable to most as a noticeable difference in the physical size. You might also wish to consider the difference in pot depth as it can be a larger contributing factor in overall comfort. The 12" pot is often made slightly deeper to keep it more in the same ratio in proportion of diameter vs. depth. Pot depth can be all over the place according to what a specific maker might normally do, so make sure you try to do a bit of research to find out what you wish to specify if custom ordering a larger pot diameter.
DroneAlone - Posted - 10/22/2012: 10:54:06
Thanks for your comments!
So what I've learned from this discussion is:
I think I'll start with 12"... from what I've seen and listened to on the web, I just like them a bit better than 11"...
quote:
Originally posted by blockader
who is the builder?
Neil Turner / Buzzard Mountain Instruments.
blockader - Posted - 10/23/2012: 10:12:23
quote:
Originally posted by DroneAlone
quote:
Originally posted by blockader
who is the builder?
Neil Turner / Buzzard Mountain Instruments.
a fellow georgian! i've played one if his that a friend has, it is an excellent banjo.
-justin
mbuk06 - Posted - 10/23/2012: 10:56:35
Just to add some confusion...I actually found a more comfortable and natural playing position with a 12" pot banjo. It tucks so snugly up under my right arm. But I love both my 11" and 12" banjos. Do they have a different tone? Yes. But that's as much down to tone rings (or lack of) and set up than just the size. Banjos are versatile whether they are 11" or 12" and it's as much how you set them up and play as any other factor.
EggerRidgeBoy - Posted - 10/23/2012: 16:30:41
quote:
Originally posted by rendesvous1840
Perhaps a maker can play some over the phone for you? One of the BHO members has a bunch of videos demonstrating various banjos playing the same song, by the same player. Durned if I can remember who it was, though. Anybody got better memory than me?
Paul
That would be Donald Zepp (who has posted in this thread) - those videos can be found on his YouTube channel: youtube.com/user/zeppmusic
They are a fantastic resource.
Edited by - EggerRidgeBoy on 10/23/2012 16:35:28
ceemonster - Posted - 10/23/2012: 19:44:18
i am really liking 12 for woodys and rolled-brass hoop banjos, and really liking 11 for full-metal-tone-ring banjos....
ZEPP - Posted - 10/24/2012: 06:42:58
quote:
Originally posted by EggerRidgeBoy
quote:
Originally posted by rendesvous1840
[...] One of the BHO members has a bunch of videos demonstrating various banjos playing the same song, by the same player. Durned if I can remember who it was, though. Anybody got better memory than me?
Paul
That would be Donald Zepp (who has posted in this thread) - those videos can be found on his YouTube channel: youtube.com/user/zeppmusic
They are a fantastic resource.
Thanks! But the more useful--and remarkably boring--collection is probably what I call the Shady Grove series, being at present 36 MP3s of Shady Grove played on different banjos over the past decade. (Actually, there are more recordings, but I haven't gotten them all uploaded yet.)
Cheers,
ZEPP
eddie83 - Posted - 10/25/2012: 10:55:33
Play a bunch. Which ever one sounds good when you play it. buy it. I go back and forth.
DroneAlone - Posted - 10/29/2012: 11:45:50
quote:
Originally posted by eddie83
Play a bunch. Which ever one sounds good when you play it. buy it. I go back and forth.
well, Germany isn't quite like the Appalachians in terms of banjos. As indicated in my initial post, the banjo - and even more so the open-back - is rather exotic here. I haven't seen any open-back banjos in any music store here. If you're lucky, you find a cheap Chinese resonator banjo. I haven't even seen anyone play an open-back banjo in Germany... there are a few Bluegrass and Country players, though.
So the only chance I have is to trust the opinions here and of course the banjo builder.
Pete
banjo bill-e - Posted - 10/29/2012: 14:14:19
The good news is that it's not that big of a deal. Get yourself a banjo, have some fun, and don't sweat the small stuff.
DroneAlone - Posted - 10/30/2012: 03:55:43
quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e
The good news is that it's not that big of a deal. Get yourself a banjo, have some fun, and don't sweat the small stuff.
sure.. but when I commission a banjo for over $1000, I'd like to put some thought into it...
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