blarneystar - Posted - 10/23/2009:  05:20:58

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That Washburn looks like the "banjorine mandolin" in the Bruno catalog from 1912 and, of course, like the Schall/Stepner banjorine from c. 1907. The Washburn was probably tuned CGDA, but how would we ever know? Even if we found a catalog or article showing that Vega or someone else was selling a CGDA-tuned four-string c. 1910, it still wouldn't qualify as a "tenor banjo" by Beezaboy's criteria, because it would have been used to pick out melodies rather than played "percussively." I think the way he's defined the search makes it impossible to declare victory. I'm still interested in early tenor banjo history, but I think we've already found the "first" ones - Farris and Schall.

beezaboy - Posted - 10/23/2009:  05:53:56

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This is straightforward:
Defined: 1. 17 frets; 2. approx. 11" head; 3. probably open back;
4. 19 1/2" - 21 1/2" scale; 5. four steel strings; 6. tuned CGDA;
7. Market = Mandolinists wishing to play the snappy, cutting rhythm instrument
desired by leaders of dance bands that were prolifigating after 1900 when overlapping musical trends included Ragtime and Dance music.
It isn't Farris, Stepner or Schall. They were promoting mandolins disguised as banjos.
And, this banjo was primarily a rhythm instrument. Doesn't mean the player
couldn't cut up with a melody break now and again.
And, I should have included violinists as part of the target market as I've
been reading about the composition of orchestras/bands of the era and
plenty of them had violins in the mix of instruments. But, you've just got
to have a tenor banjo in there to be heard with the horns.

Beezaboy

blarneystar - Posted - 10/23/2009:  15:38:55

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We're just repeating ourselves here. But what should I call my Gibson TB3? Since it's not tuned CGDA and I don't play chords, I guess it's not really a tenor banjo.

NYCJazz - Posted - 11/06/2009:  09:57:30

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Here's something possibly important:

cgi.ebay.com/ca-1900-Schall-ba...14a4d847b

BrittDLD1 - Posted - 11/06/2009:  14:17:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by NYCJazz

Here's something possibly important:
cgi.ebay.com/ca-1900-Schall-ba...14a4d847b

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It's a SHAVED banjorine neck.... Oh, the humanity!....

Dang 4-string players!!!! They're ALWAYS defiling 5-strings!!!
Who do they think they are, anyway!!!


I'll add this one to my "Zombie Banjo Hall of Shame"

Best-
Ed Britt

••• A good fiddle tune will bring two or more people together who might otherwise be enemies. •••

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Edited by - BrittDLD1 on 11/06/2009 14:18:52

beezaboy - Posted - 11/06/2009:  14:27:13

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Saw it and bid. Would like to have this for my collection
of "tenor banjo" stuff and to further validate John Balch's theory
of THE FIRST TENOR BANJO!

Beezaboy

beezaboy - Posted - 11/06/2009:  14:42:09

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Oh by the way: I'm not dogging it. Have been working
Interlibrary Loan with a vengeance. Right now I'm
reading "Mandolins in the United States Since 1880: An Industrial
and Sociocultural History of Form" a dissertation by Scott Hambly
at U. Penn 1977. The research Hambly did is humbling. He reviewed
a massive amount of period literature, etc. to produce this tome and
is frequently cited by others. I'm looking for clues.
And, the Library of Congress has disappointed me. I wrote 3 weeks
ago and sent a check for someone to identify the Cadenza microfilm
reels that would cover the relevant time period. Still no word.
Soldier on.

Beezaboy

mikeyes - Posted - 01/13/2010:  13:43:22

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Here is a Little Wonder (flickr.com/photos/46509207@N03/ from thesession.org discussion) that is supposed to be dated 1910 or so. Somehow it seems that the serial number is wrong. If not, it is a very early tenor banjo.

Mike Keyes

blarneystar - Posted - 01/13/2010:  14:21:52

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Looks like a typical Little Wonder from the 1920s to me.

DanielT - Posted - 01/13/2010:  15:14:02

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quote:

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Originally posted by blarneystar

Looks like a typical Little Wonder from the 1920s to me.

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Except, Don, it has a bracket band, which as you know is not typical of Little Wonders and kind of interesting...looks like the curtains match the drapes in terms of serial number as well. Kind of intersting, indeed.

beezaboy - Posted - 01/13/2010:  16:45:30

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I croaked when I saw that banjo. It belies everything I have learned
so far. Mike Holmes theorizes in Mugwumps that when a banjo was
returned to the Vega factory for work it retained its original serial number.
Therefore, one possibility is that this banjo was initially a 5 string and was
returned to the factory for a tenor neck around 1923. It got a new neck
and a new dowel with the new Vega stamp. The workman stamped the
serial number from the rim on the dowel. I do not think that stamp existed
in 1910 and neither did 4 sting, 17 fret, strung CGDA, plectrum banjos.
In 1910 Vega was making acoustic fretted instruments like mandolins, etc.
It was making and marketing its banjos as Fairbanks by Vega. "Vega" was
the mandolin maker. "Fairbanks" was the banjo arm of the company.
The 4 string tailpiece in 1910 would be a real anomoly.

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Edited by - beezaboy on 01/15/2010 06:55:18

beezaboy - Posted - 01/15/2010:  06:42:54

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A F-V dowel on Mandolin Banjo - 1920.

banjolin.co.uk/images/vmbperch.jpg

A Vega dowel on Tenor Banjo - looks like 7XXXXX - 1927.

banjolin.co.uk/images/vtbperch.jpg

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Edited by - beezaboy on 01/15/2010 06:50:45

Cottonmouth - Posted - 01/15/2010:  08:38:09

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I have a reference to a Fairbanks-Vega (stamped) 5-string plectrum, Serial Number 26023 of 1910. The earliest tenor designation I see for that make is Serial Number 28473 of 1912, an Imperial Electric tenor with a 10-3/4" rim. Both of these banjos have previously been mentioned, I believe.

beezaboy - Posted - 01/15/2010:  11:39:46

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Cottonmouth:
Yes, Jim Bollman's (Fairbanks-Vega) "Serial Number Dating Chart"
in Pickin' June 1978 identifies the "5 String Plectrum" (1910) and the
Imperial Electric tenor (1912).

Sure would like to see the F-V Imperial Electric SN 28473 (1912)!
Does anyone know where it is??
Museum?

Does anyone have a photo of F-V 28473?

Does anyone have a F-V circular/catalog from 1912 that depicts
the F-V tenor banjo offerings.

Does anyone have a ca 1912 magazine or newspaper Vega ad
that describes their tenor banjo in words or photos or drawings.

I would certainly appreciate the help.

John

jefferic - Posted - 03/05/2010:  10:53:18

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I have an Excelsior "Superb" 4 string banjo in very good condition. It must be 100 years old. Can anyone tell me what this might be worth? The rear wood panel has some light scratches, but otherwise it is in excellent condition. Please email me: jefferic@nyc.rr.com

stormoveroklahoma - Posted - 03/08/2010:  08:13:50

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Notice that the Bruno Tango banjo in the illustration for the article has 21 frets (and a cantilevered fretboard). So I'd call it a plectrum banjo by today's standards. But it also fits the transitional pattern that John and Ed discuss.

Bill

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I just ran into a friend who has a Bruno (NYC) 21 fret tenor banjo with a resonator and one coordinator rod, one neck nut....mostly all mahogany.

Does anyone here know of any other similar or comparable instruments and there values these days?

Charlie said its from the 1870's but I don't know how he knows this nothing seemed to be stamped anywhere, just the name on the front of the Peghead and the model name.

It had another name diagonally across the all mother of pearl peg head...but I forgot it.
I'll get it in two weeks at the next jam. I'll try to take a picture the next time too.

Any way I could not hardly find any info about Bruno online except they were in NYC in the 1850's and 1860's under different members of a related family.

?


Thanks

Storm

beezaboy - Posted - 03/08/2010:  09:25:56

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C. Bruno & Son, Inc. was established in 1834 (according to one of their logos).
Bruno was a jobber. And a big one.
Bruno did not make musical instruments - it only wholesaled them to the trade.
Bruno, for example, was a distrubutor for Rettberg & Lange Orpheum banjos.
Occasionally, Bruno would brand a banjo with "Bruno"
They had two very nice banjos, The Royal Artist and Tempo Grand, branded "Bruno".
These handsome instruments were probably made by Wm. Lange.
I have also seen a student grade Bruno with "Bruno" on the headstock and BHO member "barkthedog" had pictures in his photo album. I do not know who made the student "Bruno" banjos.
Attached is a nice short 1920 article about Bruno.
arcade-museum.com/mtr/MTR-1920...-1-48.pdf

beezaboy - Posted - 04/19/2010:  15:07:01

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This thread was the genesis for a research project.

Back in 2009 it was astounding that no one had written
an article about the "invention" of the tenor banjo.

Now there is an article.

The answer to the original question:

1. Vega (Fairbanks/Vega) developed the First (commercial)
Tenor Banjo in 1908 and by April 1912 advertised that it had
sold a Fairbanks/Vega Whyte Laydie tenor banjo for $62 at
the Guild convention. By 1913 Vega was publishing testimonials
from satisfied tenor banjo purchasers. (Others: Bacon 1914;
Rettberg & Lange 1916; Gibson 1918).

2. The very First Tenor Banjos were homemade adaptations
of existing instruments (principally the banjeaurine) during the
period 1900 - 1910 to create what eventually became the tenor banjo;
a banjo for dance orchestra work.

The "Birth of the Tenor Banjo in America" appears in the current issue
of AllFrets (No. 53-02; pp. 29-34; March/April 2010) the publication of
the Fretted Instrument Guild of America.

Thank you for the ideas and support!
Best,
John

clawhammerjazz - Posted - 04/19/2010:  17:04:48

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The new All Frets arrived at my house today. I enjoyed reading your article, John. --Cjazz

Polle Flaunoe - Posted - 04/20/2010:  08:10:43

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John,

"Hat´s off" - Respect!

Polle

blarneystar - Posted - 04/21/2010:  05:15:55

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I enjoyed the article. Leaving aside our previous difference over John's argument that no instrument tuned GDAE can be a "tenor banjo," I have only one real quibble. He repeats the old canard that Joel Sweeney added the fifth string and modern (non-gourd) body to the banjo. That's been thoroughly debunked so many times it's really weird that he's still repeating this pseudo-history. See Bob Carlin, The Birth of the Banjo: Joel Walker Sweeney and Early Minstrelsy (Jefferson NC and London: McFarland & Co., 2007) for the fullest history.

beezaboy - Posted - 04/21/2010:  11:42:25

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Thanks for the comments.

I hoped a little debate would ensue.

I'll defend:

For Blarneystar: The text of the article alleges that Sweeney
"replaced the banjo's gourd body with a bentwood rim and added an
additional string." It is not alleged that Sweeney "added the fifth string".
Only an additional string to make the instrument a five-string banjo. At the
same time (1820's) Sweeney built a banjo with a wood rim.

The authority for these assertions is: Philip F. Gura and James F. Bollman, "America's
Instrument: The Banjo in the Nineteenth Century (Chapel Hill, NC: The University of North Carolina Press, 1999), p. 49 wherein the authors discuss a written remembrance of a Sweeney friend who recalled Sweeney constructing a crude banjo in the 1820's with a wood rim and tackhead vellum with four larger strings and one smaller one. Since the short fifth string existed before Sweeney the implication is that he added another one of the long strings of the five string banjo.

See also George Gruhn and Walter Carter, "Acousticd Guitars and Other Fretted Instruments: A Photographic History (San Francisco: Miller Freeman Books, 1993), p. 41 where the authors discuss the proposition that Sweeney added one of the long strings.

Also: Rex M. Ellis, "With A Banjo On My Knee: A Musical Journey From Slavery to Freedom (London: Franklin Watts, 2001), 44. A kid's book but well researched, I thought, credits Sweeney with wood rim and bass string.

Also: Karen Linn, "That Half-Barbaric Twang: the Banjo in American Popular Culture" (Urbana, IL: University of Illinois Press, 1991) p. 2 where Linn hedges and writes that if Sweeney added a string it was the bass string.

A Sweeney wood rim 5-string banjo is in the collection of the Los Angeles County Museum and many modern reproduction minstrel banjos follow its specs to the "T".
[edit: oops, isn't that one a lefty...should have said "almost to a T".

And, of course, the beaten dead horse assertion: the tenor mandola (CGDA) and the tenor banjo (CGDA) sing the "tenor" voice in the ensemble much like the viola. The violin ( GDAE) and the mandolin (GDAE) and the banjo-mandolin (GDAE) including the mandolin-banjo (aka banjolin) and the banjorine supply the melody. The banjo-mandolin "failed" principally because its high tuning "destroyed" the familair and sought after banjo tone desired by the dance orchestra leaders.

Thanks again for commenting.
John

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Edited by - beezaboy on 04/21/2010 12:05:05

BTuno - Posted - 04/21/2010:  14:13:53

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John: I'd like to read your article, but its not available on the FIGA www site, and I don't want to join another organization right now. How might I obtain a copy / reprint of your article?

beezaboy - Posted - 04/21/2010:  17:55:54

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Bruce - I sent a copy of the text to your email.
John

stigandr5 - Posted - 04/22/2010:  03:57:42

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Wow! This whole thread was thoroughly interesting. I wish I had something intelligent to add, but thanks to all of your hard work, most everything seems to have been said already! Way to go, everyone!

NYCJazz - Posted - 04/26/2010:  07:53:32

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John

I saw the article at Cynthia's yesterday. Amazing work.

I'm going to email Eddy to make sure he's aware of it. I'm assuming he gets AllFrets, but could you send me a copy just to make sure (and so I have it!).

Again kudos to you for all your research and hard work!