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Ian_banjo - Posted - 01/11/2009: 05:23:57
The Christmas carol "Silent Night" was originally written in 6/8 time. However, whenever I hear it played it sounds like 3/4 to me. Sure, you can count the beats at twice the tempo - six to a bar - but the main emphasis of the rhythm dwells on that first beat for a whole quarter note and you feel you want to waltz to it.
A lot of 6/8 music has the emphasis on the first and fourth beats, so it sounds like 2/4 time in triplets. There are a lot of Gilbert and Sullivan comic songs done this way, for example.
Does anyone know why Silent Night would have been written in 6/8, or is is just played incorrectly nowadays? Or are the two time signatures in this particular case equivalent and interchangeable.
Ian Quayle
Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/11/2009: 05:41:02
I've never heard it played in 6/8, but you're right, it could be. I presume that the bluegrassers started picking it in 3/4 because it was easier and they were used to waltz time. The 2 time signatures aren't always interchangeable, but in this instance, it works just fine.
Let''s Pick!
Texas Banjo
tfaux - Posted - 01/11/2009: 05:57:21
Ian,
The original time signature works better for a sung carol, as opposed to as dance.
When it's in 6/8 each phrase stands on its own, and the song has an appropriate sense of stillness. 3/4 gives it a kind of sweeping movement, as TB says.
You mention tempo, but there's no reason that 6/8 should have a quicker feel than 3/4.
By the way, here's a good page with the original: http://www.silentnight.at/en/text_and_music.asp
Tom
Ian_banjo - Posted - 01/11/2009: 09:02:33
Thanks to you both for your comments. You can see a manuscript in Gruber's own hand here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stille_nacht.jpg Note that it is in 6/8.
I was just trying to say that the way the song was written originally, in 6/8, the pulse of the song would be twice as fast - because you would be counting eighth notes, not quarter notes. But you would sing it or play it pretty much the same in either case. Or are there subtle nuances of stress that would occur on particular notes in 6/8 time that you wouldn't get in 3/4?
Ian Quayle
tfaux - Posted - 01/11/2009: 10:03:35
quote:
Originally posted by Ian_banjo
I was just trying to say that the way the song was written originally, in 6/8, the pulse of the song would be twice as fast - because you would be counting eighth notes, not quarter notes. But you would sing it or play it pretty much the same in either case. Or are there subtle nuances of stress that would occur on particular notes in 6/8 time that you wouldn't get in 3/4?
Ian Quayle
Thanks Ian, ok, now I get it.
The nuance is in the phrasing. In a 6/8 measure the entire phrase ("Si-i-lent night") is contained in the measure, so the "Si" gets primary emphasis, "night" gets secondary emphasis. Then the same with "Ho-o-ly Night."
In 3/4 "Si" and "night" are given equal weight, as the downbeats of their respective measures. It changes the feel slightly.
If it's played as a waltz though, each three-beat pulse needs emphasis.
He could also have put it in 6/4 of course, but it would have given a lot of visual weight to the weak beats, and probably sounded heavy.
As always, the notation is fair game for interpretation though.
cheers,
Tom
Joe Larson - Posted - 01/11/2009: 11:02:30
Well, there's nothing inherent in the time signature that would indicate the tempo. Even though the vast majority of 6/8 tunes are faster than most 3/4 time tunes, they don't necessarily have to be.
j
I''d rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
Edited by - Joe Larson on 01/11/2009 11:02:57
jkb52088 - Posted - 01/11/2009: 11:58:00
quote:
Originally posted by Texasbanjo
I've never heard it played in 6/8, but you're right, it could be. I presume that the bluegrassers started picking it in 3/4 because it was easier and they were used to waltz time. The 2 time signatures aren't always interchangeable, but in this instance, it works just fine.
Let''s Pick!
Texas Banjo
Just for my sake can I have an example where 6/8 time can't be substitued with 3/4. Because I have never seen a moment where this can't happen and I am curious. Thanks
Klondike Waldo - Posted - 01/12/2009: 12:11:25
quote:
Originally posted by jkb52088
quote:
Originally posted by Texasbanjo
I've never heard it played in 6/8, but you're right, it could be. I presume that the bluegrassers started picking it in 3/4 because it was easier and they were used to waltz time. The 2 time signatures aren't always interchangeable, but in this instance, it works just fine.
Let''s Pick!
Texas Banjo
Just for my sake can I have an example where 6/8 time can't be substitued with 3/4. Because I have never seen a moment where this can't happen and I am curious. Thanks
Any 6/8 march or jig would be an example- in those there are two major beats, each of which is a triplet.
Teh Americ for West Side Story is a special case called hemiola in which the 6/8 is subdivided in two ways- as two triplets and as three duplets, alternately.
I''ll never play like Earl Scruggs or sing like Luciano Pavarotti, but I''ll pick better than Luciano and sing tenor better than Earl
deligo ergo renideo,
Bob Cameron
jkb52088 - Posted - 01/13/2009: 19:14:30
quote:
Originally posted by Mirek Patek
quote:
Originally posted by jkb52088
Just for my sake can I have an example where 6/8 time can't be substitued with 3/4. Because I have never seen a moment where this can't happen and I am curious. Thanks
Search America (West Side Story song) in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
Mirek
-------------------------------------------------
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Thx for this example I forgot about hemiola. I have experienced this now that I think about it.
This whole time I was more of thinking of a song that is in 3/4 that couldn't be transcribed into 6/8, or a song that is in 6/8 that can't be transcribed in 3/4. Is that possible to find an example like that. Forget advanced music with mixed meter and meter changes. Keep it simple.
Edited by - jkb52088 on 01/13/2009 19:19:26
jkb52088 - Posted - 01/13/2009: 19:29:37
quote:
Originally posted by Klondike Waldo
quote:
Originally posted by jkb52088
quote:
Originally posted by Texasbanjo
I've never heard it played in 6/8, but you're right, it could be. I presume that the bluegrassers started picking it in 3/4 because it was easier and they were used to waltz time. The 2 time signatures aren't always interchangeable, but in this instance, it works just fine.
Let''s Pick!
Texas Banjo
Just for my sake can I have an example where 6/8 time can't be substitued with 3/4. Because I have never seen a moment where this can't happen and I am curious. Thanks
Any 6/8 march or jig would be an example- in those there are two major beats, each of which is a triplet.
Teh Americ for West Side Story is a special case called hemiola in which the 6/8 is subdivided in two ways- as two triplets and as three duplets, alternately.
I''ll never play like Earl Scruggs or sing like Luciano Pavarotti, but I''ll pick better than Luciano and sing tenor better than Earl
deligo ergo renideo,
Bob Cameron
Could the 6/8 march beat which is two dotted quaters note which has like you said a triplet feel be broken down into two 3/4 bars like this:
l One Two Three l One Two Three l
l trip pull it l trip pull it l
which also equals of one bar of 6/8 right?
l One Two Three Four Five Six l
l trip pull it trip pull it l
jkb52088 - Posted - 01/13/2009: 19:34:02
I understand that is very hard to understand the way that lines up but just same one two three one two three the same way you would count 6/8.
Compare it to 4/4 being turned into 2/4
1 2 3 4
vs.
1 & 2 &
brokenstrings - Posted - 01/14/2009: 20:04:51
Ian, as I recall from a German book of folk songs, Silent Night was originally written in 6/8, there were more dotted notes than there are nowadays, and it was sung to the guitar because the organ was kaputt.
Jessy
Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!
